Sheild gas thoughts?

[spursjingles]

I bought my tank after researching & calculating lease vs. Buy. Tanks need a hydro test every 7 years, which costs $25. Generally you hand in your old tank & get another tank back full. You still own a tank, but what tank that's changes. I've had my tank filled & returned occasionally too though.

I hear some places don't like customer owned tanks & will not fill them or not fill them without ownership documentation. Haven't ran into that or any issues showing up with just a tank & no paperwork myself at the couple local welding shops I use here in Colorado. They are more mom & pop types though. Big guys like Airgas might be more picky.

You don't get hit with hydro test charges if you lease, but $25 every 7 years is a lot cheaper than a $10-30 annual lease.

I just upgraded from my 150cf? tank to a 250cf? tank if I recall. Cost $70 & apparently happens a few times a day at my local welding shop with people needing more capacity or more portability.

I buy lease a large tank and have the correct hose fittings to fill my small bottle for easy transport. As i do, the pressure is less per fill. But worth it.

 

[Jeepnford]

I hear some places don't like customer owned tanks & will not fill them or not fill them without ownership documentation. Haven't ran into that or any issues showing up with just a tank & no paperwork myself at the couple local welding shops I use here in Colorado. They are more mom & pop types though. Big guys like Airgas might be more picky.

.

The guy I buy my tanks from is I guess what you would call an independent dealer for an airgas distributor. After I bought some tanks with no proof of ownership I asked him if it would be difficult to get them filled. He said "nobody cares anymore". Apparently he was right.

 

[PJSprog]

We tried some Stargon with one of our MIG welders earlier this week. Wow, what a difference. We use it for our robotic welders, but the rest of the human shop uses CO₂. Someone decided to try it on a new prototype part, and the company President was so impressed he now wants to consider using it throughout the shop. I suspect he'll reconsider when he sees what that will cost versus CO₂, but even one of our mediocre welders admitted he's rarely made welds that clean. Very little splatter, and a pleasingly smooth sizzle.

 

[BukitCase]

PJ, do you have an approximate price comparison among CO2, C25 and "stargon"? Praxair is pretty tight-lipped about how much of each gas is in it, I'm guessing OTHER suppliers' "tri-mix" may be similar? Thanks... Steve

 

[yomax4]

It's a trade secret for some reason. When i worked at Prax they would only say it was 3-5% O2. I personally don't care for tri mix on mild steel. Beats CO2 though if you are running transformer machines.

 

[BukitCase]

Agreed, thanks - when I bought my transformer mm211 I'd already done enough research (our weld shop at work employed 18-20 weldors, 2 of which were on the rotating crew I ran :thumbsup to know I didn't want CO2 for my projects - (closest thing to slag I see is maybe a bb or two)

Then about a year later I found an irresistable deal on a MM252 with dual running gear and an UN-USED 30A, so I just up-sized/added bottles - currently have C25 in 2 "K" size tanks (200cf) and a "S" (150), and Ar in another "S" and a smaller "Q" size (80cf) -

I'm finding I don't use enough Ar to warrant a backup tank, plus a buddy gave me some stainless scraps and (for those smaller projects) I'd like to just stick a 2# spool of stainless wire in the 30A and go - this would ALSO NOT be close to a production situation, so I'm thinking about just finishing off the smaller Ar bottle and swapping for tri-mix next fill.

My LWS is NOT Prax-air and I've had some of my owner tanks with them (O/A) since 1978, and they're NOT shy about questions so I'll be with 'em til one of us croaks - so next time I talk to 'em hopefully I'll actually REMEMBER their tri-mix #'s ...Steve

 

[Big Barn]

I used my LWS (Air Liquide ) trimix" (91%Argon-5%CO2 and 4%Oxygen) for several years before switching back to C25.

During that time my weld quality showed no notable improvement and I didn't date ANY supermodels. :=)

Terry

 

[yomax4]

In the old days ( prior to pulse ) Oxygen was added to Ar Co2 to enable the smaller machines to be able to get close to spray transfer. It kinda worked but in my opinion it simply added oxidizers to your weldment. For the same or less cost you could go with 90/10 or 95/5 and do well with out the oxidizers. trimix stargon still seems to appeal to some as it is pretty common out there.

 

[BukitCase]

I've had no complaints whatever with C25, do too much out of position to be interested in a separate bottle (or the extra cost) for spray - only thing I was looking at tri-mix for would be occasional stainless MIG.

If I ever get off my heinie and get a water cooler and water cooled torch for the TIG I probably won't even do THAT, just keep C25 and Ar.

Must be the "Old Fart Syndrome", FINALLY the hot young ladies smile at me - probably 'cause they KNOW I'm harmless/too old to take YES for an answer - ...Steve

 

[dragoneggs]

I used my LWS (Air Liquide ) trimix" (91%Argon-5%CO2 and 4%Oxygen) for several years before switching back to C25.

During that time my weld quality showed no notable improvement and I didn't date ANY supermodels. :=)

Terry

But did you stay at a Holiday Inn? :laughing:

 

[Big Barn]

But did you stay at a Holiday Inn? :laughing:

Mark, you may find it hard to believe, but even us farmboys have stayed at "Holiday Inns".

I think I can say with confidence that I have NEVER had a complaint from a supermodel.....

 

[KubotainNH]

So, I like the new welder and have gotten good at thin metal. I tried to do some thicker stuff but ended up with balls of metal instead. This welder did not come with a chart like I see on the inside door of some. Any rules of thumb? Examples of rules needed.

-how much to jump up on power/wire speed as the metal gets thicker? Example is double the thickness of metal and do what with the power vs wire speed?
-balling means? (as far as I can see it is too much power for the wire speed)
-the balling seemed to happen when welding with the tip up, when I did it with the tip down the weld was decent but probably cut in too much.
-at what point do you need to go thicker wire? I have .023 right now. Change when wire speed is close to max?

I realize what I need to do is spend time using it but I don't always have extra time compared to the project at hand. The weather also has not been cooperating. Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

 

[BukitCase]

Mike, here's a clarified version of the chart from my MM252, maybe you can get an idea from that - but before it's gonna mean much, you will need to "calibrate" voltage and wire speed - otherwise those knobs won't tell you much unless you wanna keep a notebook like "got best results with .023 wire on 1/8" steel with knobs set at 2 and 5", etc -

Another option - if your manual tells you more about what those knobs mean, the chart below should help - otherwise, keep reading -

With the "calibration" method, you would first disconnect the drive roll so wire doesn't feed - it should still be "hot" when you squeeze the trigger tho, then with a volt meter between ground lead and the mig wire, you should be able to read the voltage at each # on the knob and write those down ("1=16volts", etc...) In reality tho, those will be "open circuit" voltage; in use, the voltage will probably be a bit less.

To calibrate wire speed you would hook the drive roll back up so it feeds - then, starting with wire just barely sticking out of the tip, set the feed knob to "1", squeeze the trigger for EXACTLY 6 seconds and stop - measure the length of wire (in inches) and multiply by 10 - that is your IPM at "1" - repeat for each knob setting til you have a chart of wire speeds at each knob #.

From there, hopefully your LWS carries the Miller "slide rule" Mig calculators, they're only a few bucks - it's a physical version of the chart found here, only better

MIG Solid-Core Welding Calculator - MillerWelds

Hopefully this will give you an idea - personally, with that welder I'd consider just sticking to .030 wire - I've welded 18 gauge with mine using C25 gas and .035 wire, .030 should take you down even thinner... Steve

 

[Big Barn]

Those calculators are available on eBay also but I THINK Miller sent mine out FREE.

Terry

 

[KubotainNH]

Very good info, never thought to measure the voltage on the unit but logical. As for the thin wire, it's works great for car body panels which is what we use this for the most but I will have to buy some thicker stuff too.

 

[KubotainNH]

Those calculators are available on eBay also but I THINK Miller sent mine out FREE.

Terry

Like this? Miller Electric Millermatic Calculator Gas Metal MIG TIG STICK 43125 FREE SHIP | eBay

 

[Big Barn]

Like this? Miller Electric Millermatic Calculator Gas Metal MIG TIG STICK 43125 FREE SHIP | eBay

I recall seeing that or similar on eBay then realizing Miller sent them out free.... IIRC. But then I can't even remember what I had for LUNCH.

 

[KubotainNH]

So new question, what's the typical way to figure out a leak besides soapy water? Here's the scoop, on my second tank the shutoff was left open and the next day tank was empty. Oops, lets not forget it open son. On a fresh tank I noticed that when closing the valve the gauge bleeds down to under 500lbs in well under a minute. This doesn't seem right to me and has been this way since I got it and on 4 different cylinders. I've tried closing the output adjustment and it does the same so I'm assuming it's the seal to the tank or inside the valve itself. Looking for thoughts on what is common to leak. At $50 a pop to refill I prefer limited leakage.

I did try spraying some of the fittings looking for bubbles but didn't get far. Is it common for the valve that comes with the Everlast welder to leak? Worth contacting them? Thanks!

 

[yomax4]

Yes. In most cases when you shut down the tank it will slowly bleed down via gas seeping past the solenoid. I did have a Lincoln SP250 once that held gas for days prior to bleeding out. As far as draining the tank? Yeah. The most important thing when done welding is to shut that valve off and it Never hurts to pull the cover and leak test your gas guzzler.

 

[Mark @ Everlast]

May be trash on the solenoid seat. Dirt, or rust, or possibly a piece of machined off brass.