Synthetic Rotella

JJT · Sep 27, 2004

Over a year ago I switched everything I own over to synthetic. Rotella in the 2 Kubotas and Mobil 1 in all the gas engines. I love the stuff.

I've doubled my oil change intervals based on used oil analysis, (went from 3000 miles with dino to 6000 miles with syn, as well as 50 hours to 100 hours on the diesels).

Ease of start is only 1 benefit, I've seen a slight increase in gas mileage in the cars. That plus the increased miles between oil changes, and I'm finding it much cheaper to run synthetic. If I count labor, I'm way ahead, now I'm only doing an oil change every 2 - 3 months instead of 1 every 4 - 6 weeks with the dino

The only downside, I have a friend that burns waste oil, my volume to him has significantly reduced....

Dargo · Sep 27, 2004

Here is the article about Chrysler sludge. Again, there is articles on Toyota and Ford as well. I just can't find them right now. It seems that nobody is immune. As mentioned in lots of posts, we are demanding more out of smaller engines using less fuel.

cp1969 · Sep 27, 2004

( The issue is NOT related to highway or city driving. It is related to certain parts of the oil passages being "super heated" and causing the oil to break down. )

Then we are talking about two different "sludges". I am talking about the black crud that was mainly attributed to an inability of the detergent (or lack of detergent altogether) to suspend dirt and crud in the oil and not let it deposit on engine surfaces, not the oil itself breaking down.

( The oil companies say that it is a defect in engine design. The auto manufacturers claim that it is a defect in the refining process. Either way, without going into more than I can regarding my business, oil problems happen every day by the thousands.)

By the thousands, eh? Then, having owned over fifty vehicles, there would be a fair chance that I should have had a problem, no? Or at least know of someone who has? OTOH, I don't know anyone who owns a 2.7l Dodge.

( After much research, synthetic oil does not have the sub components needed to break down into "sludge". In other words, synthetic oil is chemically not able to break down into a wax or parifin or jelly (whatever you want to call it) that begins the end of an engine.)

This one I really have trouble with. Then what exactly does happen to it when it becomes superheated? I will concede that it may take a higher temperature or a longer exposure time, but unless synthetic oil simply vanishes when it gets hot, I'm going to suggest that a pan of synthetic, exposed to high temperatures, will eventually break down and reduce to thick goo or ashes, just like regular oil does.

( I'm not placing blame, I'm just reporting facts based upon a base of thousands of cases. Again, for the assurance that the problem supposedly physically cannot happen with synthetic oil, I'm going to use it. In the insurance business, it is known as cheap insurance. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif )

I think the key word there is "supposedly." If the Dodge engine indeed has a high oil temperature problem, maybe the increased temperature resistance of synthetic might be enough to do the trick. However, if this is a case of a poor lubrication system design being bailed out by synthetic oil, it doesn't make a case for using synthetic where it is not needed (i.e., well designed lube systems). It simply says that there may be instances that need or can benefit from synthetic oil, just as there are some people who need to take blood pressure medications. Because some people need blood thinners doesn't mean we all do.

YMMV. If it gives you a warm fuzzy feeling, go for it. I'm not trying to talk anybody out of using synthetic if that's what they want. I just want to offer up that some people are having pretty good luck with plain, old, sub-standard dino oil, at least in the applications where plain, old, substandard dino oil is appropriate.

BRIGUY · Sep 27, 2004

The Sludge just hasn't baked enough to trurn black and get hard.

I worked In Chrysler dealers for several years in the 80's and 90's. I still have some friends in the biz. They have seen this problem. My wife insured one of these problems. It was a mess for everyone. I was told that all of the bad motors they have seen were from cars where oil changes were extended or missed all together.

It kind of sounds like Chryslers problem. If they put change intervals at 7k for sched A, and 3k for sched B than they must know that there are some people who will change it with the cheapest oil at 7k+, no mater how they drive. I've seen it many times. They need to get more specific and educate buyers better. Then if buyers then don't service properly void their warranty.

I have never had an oil related problem in any engine I have owned, Dino or synthetic,(never went over 3k on Dino) I changed to synthetic 14 years ago but never had a problem before that. For all the reasons previously discussed I think synthetic is better. BUT!!!!! if the OEM manual says that Dino is o/k than it should be fine, and not sludge up at recomended intervals.

Junkman · Sep 27, 2004

What are the current recommended treatments to clean or remove sludge without disassembly of the engine????

BRIGUY · Sep 27, 2004

Junk,
The people who had the sludge problems found when the engines were torn down after failure. (boat anchor)

I don't think the Lacquer thinner method is advisable with emissions systems. Evap purge for instance.

Junkman · Sep 28, 2004

You have been paying attention in class..... you pass the memory test with a A+..... LOL.... Can't even remember when I had posted that, but I know it was quite a while ago. It still works well on lawnmower engines... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

slowrev · Sep 28, 2004

The only case of oil jelling I ever saw seemed to have been caused by a combination of not changing the oil on schedule and the user/abuser added a different brand of oil when the engine oil was already past due to change. ! week later it was jellin, knocked like ctrazy because the oil pump could not suck it up, etc...
Only case I have seen.

Ben

Dargo · Sep 28, 2004

( Then we are talking about two different "sludges". )

Nope, sludge is sludge. I haven't tasted it, but the engineers and factories make no separate grades of sludge

( By the thousands, eh? )

Yes. To be more accurate it is likely tens of thousands. Look it up.

( Then what exactly does happen to it when it becomes superheated? )

Take two pans and some conventional oil and some synthetic and spend an afternoon boiling each. I don't know. I'm a statistic guy. The statistics point to no problem with synthetic.

( if this is a case of a poor lubrication system design being bailed out by synthetic oil, )

Now you may have something! The problem is that it appears to affect most every manufacturer and several different engines. I've never had a problem with any engine using conventional oil, but I've never gone over 3K miles between changes.

I have to strongly agree with the poster who pointed out that the manufacturers should not put two different oil change schedules in their manuals when there is a definite possibility that using the lesser expensive schedule (longer in between changes) could very likely cause major engine problems. Without hesitation, I'll stay with my statement, especially knowing the facts and statistics, that I'll now use synthetic oil in any engine that is worth more than the cost of the synthetic oil that I'm putting in it. There again, that's just me. I don't like rap music at all, but some people do...

mhalla · Sep 28, 2004

If you cut open the oil filter after an oil change on a Chrysler 2.7 would there be evidence of sludge inside the filter if there is sludge in the crankcase?

Or do you have to drop the pan to obtain the necessary evidence? Is there an automotive fiber optic scope that would let me see inside the pan through the drain hole so the pan wouldn't need to be dropped?

You guys have me worried about the 2.7 in my Stratus that now has 38,400 miles on it. Even though I have religiously changed the oil every 3000 miles (with dino) I do not have all the receipts if I have to "prove" to Chrysler that the oil was changed at this interval should my engine sludge up and would be covered by an extended warranty program offered to all owners.

Mike

SkyPup · Sep 28, 2004

Generally oil sludge is derived from excessive moisture in the crankcase, especially when mixed in with combustion by-products, including inorganic acids.

All oils will form sludge under these conditions, both synthetic and non-synthetic. although synthetic will last longer under similar conditions.

A major contributor to oil composition breakdown is excessive heat, which synthetic oils can resist better than nonsynthetic.

BTW, most high grade API diesel certifed engine oils are BETTER than similar gasoline engine oils since diesel engine oil have different additives to keep combustion byproducts in suspension and not in contact with the structural components.

We've been using Shell Synthetic Rotella 5W-40 in my Chevy 350 V-8 pickmeup and our old Massey 1030 tractor ever since it came out, prior to that was using the old dino Shell Rotella 5W-40.

Here are the API specs on the Shell Rotella T 5-40 Full Synthetic:

http://www.shell-lubricants.com/products/pdf/RotellaTSynthetic.pdf

Dargo · Sep 28, 2004

mhalla, PM me and I will give you more specific factual details. As for posted advice, it is well worth the extra expense to use synthetic oil in your 2.7. If so, it is a good engine and should serve you well. I don't want to spark any debate (mainly because if someone wants to go against factory engineers' new findings, consumer alert groups, and item specific large data actuarial facts, that is their business...sort of like smoking; it's bad for you, but I'm not going to tell you not to do it). /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

mhalla · Sep 28, 2004

Wow. After seeing all the hits on Google about sludge problems with Chrysler's 2.7 engine I am ready to go car shopping and trade my 2001 Stratus in tomorrow before it is too late. Unfortunately I should have done that last month before the recent spike in media reports about the problem. Bet I won't get as much on a trade-in this month as I could have a couple of months ago.

Looks like it should be worth $6800 on a trade-in according to Edmunds.

Mike

Dargo · Sep 28, 2004

I just happen to know the owner of the 4th largest Dodge dealership in the country rather well. Most large Dodge dealerships now have a machine that hooks onto where your oil filter goes and "flushes" out your engine. I'd advise having that done, then run synthetic in it and don't worry. Without the flush, you have a pickup screen that can easily become clogged with the first signs of sludging, and that begins the drop in oil flow. The flush will clear that.

Hey, on most new BMW and Mercedes and Volvo vehicles, you will void your factory warranty if you do not use synthetic oil. But, nah, this sludge stuff is just a bunch of bunk... /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

WilliamBos · Sep 28, 2004

Hi,

Ok while we have evryones attention, I will post this here.

We are in the process of rebuilding a Perkins A3.152 diesle for our MF 35. I was going to run Shell Rotella T 30W. The manula calls for ( DG I think ) a HIGH DETERGENT oil to prevent varnish and sludge build up. Will Rotella Synthetic offer these same qualites?

Thanks

Will

banjobj · Sep 28, 2004

Dargo, Has Saturn had a problem also.

Dargo · Sep 28, 2004

banjobj, I've been warned by my legal staff abou giving out too much information that will soon go into the U.
S. legal system. In other words, I am not allowd to answer your question.
I'll just suggest to begin using synthetic. At absolute worse, you may have wasted a couple of bucks on each oil change. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

cp1969 · Sep 28, 2004

( Most large Dodge dealerships now have a machine that hooks onto where your oil filter goes and "flushes" out your engine. I'd advise having that done, then run synthetic in it and don't worry. )

About the only thing that will flush is your wallet. There is no way that running a solvent through the oil passages would get very much (let alone all) of any kind of solid deposits out of an engine.

( Hey, on most new BMW and Mercedes and Volvo vehicles, you will void your factory warranty if you do not use synthetic oil. But, nah, this sludge stuff is just a bunch of bunk... /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif )

What that says to me that if they will void your warranty for not using synthetic, they must have marginal lubrication systems. Buyer beware. As far as this sludge stuff being a bunch of bunk...from my personal experience, it is. Haven't seen any since the '70's and I've had a number of engines apart (no Dodge 2.7's, though). I am always pleasantly surprised at how clean the interior of engines are using today's dino oil. Again, YMMV.

BRIGUY · Sep 28, 2004

mhalla
Don't sell your car. Just keep the oil changed!!! Preferably with synthetic. If not change early with dino if the car sees stop and go driving.

Lets not start a panic here. IMHO chrysler products are great. I have several. Including one with a 3.0L V/6 and an A604 (This combo had a lot of warranty issues) I rebuilt the tranny with current updates 100k ago still perfect. I performed the updates on the heads 50k ago, runs perfect with 150k. My others have never been apart. My oil analysis results from Blackstone have been Excellent.

If you are that concerned drop the pan, maybe a valve cover and inspect. I think the pan will be easier. (I haven't had a 2.7 apart)

Better yet, rent or borrow a borescope. This will only add 15 minutes to your next oil change, and provide you with piece of mind.

cp1969

( About the only thing that will flush is your wallet. There is no way that running a solvent through the oil passages would get very much (let alone all) of any kind of solid deposits out of an engine. ) 

I don't know where the sludge is forming but I would think it was on the return side??? Oil is moving too fast on the pressure side to sludge. Plus how could the sludge be getting through the bearings. Wouldn't the oil feeds be plugged solid causing failure rather than the sludge in the pan and a plugged pick up causing the starvation that has been described.

You commented that the sludge looked soft. then you commented that A flush could not remove hard deposits????

If the slugde is in fact forming in the return side and in the pan, then I believe that the flush would work well. Plus I think this would be A Warranty issue. Chrysler would rather pay for a flush than a motor.

Dargo · Sep 29, 2004

cp1969:
Oh well, I had three more nice sludge pics that came across my desk today; one of a 3800 GM engine, one of a 5.4 liter Ford and a 3.0 liter Toyota. I figured that there was no use posting them. Since I posted pics before and you didn't believe them, the factories endorse the flush systems, and more and more brands are requiring synthetic oil; I just thought you would figure that I'm just wanting to sell synthetic oil. By the way, I don't sell oil and obviously you are free to use crude if it works for you. Apparently facts, statistics, pictures, and inside industry articles are not to be believed by you. It is interesting that today I spoke with a guy who owned a muffler shop who is totally convinced that the U.S. government rammed the planes into the twin towers just to give them a reason to go to war. He really believes that in spite of all of the facts, pictures, interviews, and publications. Some people are simply not subject to logic nor reasoning. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif Have a good 'un! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif