Tractor vs. Skid steer vs. Dozer

[ferrari99]

I am not looking to buy a tractor but I think this is an interesting comparison for discussion. , If you wanted a 4in1 bucket, slasher, rotovator and post hole digger. And you wanted to be able to clear trees/brush up to 8" round in reasonable rough and rocky country. What would you get, Tractor (with a loader and three point linkage), Skid steer, Dozer (with a loader and three point linkage).

 

[TSO]

Trac-loader. That's what I'd get if I didn't need the rear pto shaft for anything... that, and if I was wealthy enough to afford the higher priced skid steer implements.

Or .... a strong compact tractor with good hydraulics.

 

[firetuck]

In my experience in farming and excavating there isn't a 'one-size (or type) fits-all' machine for what you want to do.
Clearing, especially in trees/brush, rough and rocky terrain, is dozer work. A tracked SS might be able to work it out in time but a dozer is the machine. You have to remember they're slow to move over any distance and require trucking any time there's a road. I can't go next-door to plow the neighbors snow with a dozer.
Tractors are slow and ungainly when compared to dozers or skid steers. They take a LOT more room to maneuver and just aren't as 'quick' to operate. With the sole exception of ground-engaging (plowing, harrowing, tilling) equipment, the SS will not only outperform the tractor, it has more attachments that it will work with.
For most all other work and to offer the versatility you're looking for with other attachments, the skid steer is the way to go.
My dozer's gone, my tractor's gone but my skid steer is ready to do more at the turn of a key.

 

[ferrari99]

What about machine and implement cost? And SS ground clearance and traction?

 

[Xfaxman]

I am not looking to buy a tractor but I think this is an interesting comparison for discussion. , If you wanted a 4in1 bucket, slasher, rotovator and post hole digger. And you wanted to be able to clear trees/brush up to 8" round in reasonable rough and rocky country. What would you get, Tractor (with a loader and three point linkage), Skid steer, Dozer (with a loader and three point linkage).

This compact telehandler will do it all. It does cost more, but it's worth it. :thumbsup:

It is only 6' wide, 6.5' high, 13' long, very stable on side hills and "unstuckable".

Click for more pictures: http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/buying-pricing-comparisons/296853-dozer-skid-steer.html

 

[newbury]

I am not looking to buy a tractor but I think this is an interesting comparison for discussion. , If you wanted a 4in1 bucket, slasher, rotovator and post hole digger. And you wanted to be able to clear trees/brush up to 8" round in reasonable rough and rocky country. What would you get, Tractor (with a loader and three point linkage), Skid steer, Dozer (with a loader and three point linkage).

For those LIMITED tasks a SS would be best. A tractor is just an engine on wheels (usually), ready to take on most any task with the appropriate attachment. Because of it's relatively long history there are more attachments generally available.

 

[firetuck]

What about machine and implement cost? And SS ground clearance and traction?

You get what you pay for and have to be willing to pay for what you want. As for the SS versus tractor cost, you have to look at what you're getting. A relatively small SS (new) will probably cost more than a somewhat comparable tractor. A 60-75 hp SS will probably cost more than a 40-50 hp tractor.
A tractor will probably have greater ground clearance but, if you're steeple-chasing with it, or mud-bogging, you're using the wrong equipment for the wrong thing anyway.
Implements cost will be fairly comparable since the attachment of them is the key difference - three-point versus loader-quick-mount. And consider that all of the SS implements attach up front so you don't have the chiropractor bill to add into the mix. Some of the key reasons I got rid of my Beaver included: I was tired of turning around to plow snow; the snow blade had a 12" moldboard and couldn't push a lot of snow; the blade would only lift a couple of feet - stacking was not really possible; the loader was agonizingly slow (by comparison), had a bucket well narrower than the wheel-width, the bucket wouldn't hold enough snow (I considered building a larger bucket but the loader arms wouldn't have liked that); took a lot of room to turn around; had long cycle times (slow to stop, shift, reverse, stop, shift), along with a wide sweep of the front end to accommodate the turning - and a wide sweep pushing either forward or reverse; it couldn't 'dig itself out' if I got it stuck (the bucket didn't have enough range-of-motion, relative to the need - to push/pull me around)...and I could go on.
I'm obviously sold on the SS.
BTW, more on ground clearance. Unless you're working in pure, bottomless mud, or on top of non-supporting snow, ground clearance is not a big problem. Either can get stuck. Tracks can make a difference on 'floating' either.

 

[RedNeckRacin]

You get what you pay for and have to be willing to pay for what you want. As for the SS versus tractor cost, you have to look at what you're getting. A relatively small SS (new) will probably cost more than a somewhat comparable tractor. A 60-75 hp SS will probably cost more than a 40-50 hp tractor.
A tractor will probably have greater ground clearance but, if you're steeple-chasing with it, or mud-bogging, you're using the wrong equipment for the wrong thing anyway.
Implements cost will be fairly comparable since the attachment of them is the key difference - three-point versus loader-quick-mount. And consider that all of the SS implements attach up front so you don't have the chiropractor bill to add into the mix. Some of the key reasons I got rid of my Beaver included: I was tired of turning around to plow snow; the snow blade had a 12" moldboard and couldn't push a lot of snow; the blade would only lift a couple of feet - stacking was not really possible; the loader was agonizingly slow (by comparison), had a bucket well narrower than the wheel-width, the bucket wouldn't hold enough snow (I considered building a larger bucket but the loader arms wouldn't have liked that); took a lot of room to turn around; had long cycle times (slow to stop, shift, reverse, stop, shift), along with a wide sweep of the front end to accommodate the turning - and a wide sweep pushing either forward or reverse; it couldn't 'dig itself out' if I got it stuck (the bucket didn't have enough range-of-motion, relative to the need - to push/pull me around)...and I could go on.
I'm obviously sold on the SS.
BTW, more on ground clearance. Unless you're working in pure, bottomless mud, or on top of non-supporting snow, ground clearance is not a big problem. Either can get stuck. Tracks can make a difference on 'floating' either.

Sounds like you had the wrong tractor? A HST is very compareable to a SS in moving ability lacing turning radius. Most tractors with a loader have the option to come from the factory with a SSQA and renders the bucket size a moot point as you can run anything that will fit on the QA meaning they will use the same attachments that a SS will. The major downside I see to a tractor though is the lack of visibility to the implement that you are using. (post hole auger comes to mind quickly) The 3 point hitch on a tractor is a pulling mechanism and not a pushing mechanism. Also, for the compareable HP you get a much heavier machine with a tractor than a SS. I do agree about the cycle times though! A machine that is purpose built with an attachment is going to work much better than one that is bolted/pinned on.

Basically a tractor is purpose built for farming but can accept a variety of attachments to make it useful for other tasks instead of having dedicated machines. If you do enough of anytype of work, it soon is justifiable to buy a single piece of equipment that excels at that certain job.

 

[ferrari99]

I wrote a list of what I thought were the goods and bads of dozers, bobcats and tractors, so here it is. I have any additions or criticisms please reply.

 

[paulharvey]

I wrote a list of what I thought were the goods and bads of dozers, bobcats and tractors, so here it is. I have any additions or criticisms please reply.
<img src="http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=347579"/>

I would change dozer to single purpose; they grade and push dirt, they do also pull, but thats it.

Visibility? Skid steer and tractor seem reversed... skid steer has good visibility forward where you are working, tractor has poor forward visibility.

I would add road ability; dozer is not road able, skid steer is poor, tractor is medium to good (most run 12-18 mph)

 

[paulharvey]

It sounds to be like you need an industrial tractor like a JD 210/Case Ck5xx, they are heavy (10,000#), have loader (meant for actual work), ~65 hp. the JD has down pressure on the 3 pnt, has a seat that pivots like 15 degrees for watching rear implement with out braking your neck. One hold up is im not sure any construction grade tractors have a PTO. They do however have plenty of hydraulic flow. Expect to pay $60+k new

Edits: 73 hp or 85 hp with turbo, doesnt look like the JD comes with a PTO available.

Ford, Massey, New Holland, and John Deere have all made industrial tractors over the years, but as far as I know, only Case and JD still make construction grade machines.

 

[ferrari99]

I am talking about a dozer with a front end loader and three point linkage and a PTO. In terms of side ways and rear visibility a tractor is a long way in front of a skid steer. I agree with the road ability and will add it to the list.

 

[tessiers]

This compact telehandler will do it all. It does cost more, but it's worth it. :thumbsup:
View attachment 347478 View attachment 347479 View attachment 347480
It is only 6' wide, 6.5' high, 13' long, very stable on side hills and "unstuckable".

Click for more pictures: http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/buying-pricing-comparisons/296853-dozer-skid-steer.html

I beg to differ, nothing is unstuckable, only expensivelyrecoverable. I saw a JD 790 Excavator building a drainage ditch over a stream bank stuck, not a pretty sight, another 790, a cat 345 and a D8 crawler on scene before she came out. Fellow paying the bill was less than impressed, at least no one got hurt or fired. I agree the tele-handlers are quite impressive. Personally I think its like comparing a F-350, to a Volvo, so a Stockcar. They all haul our rear ends around, but definitely different use machines.

 

[Xfaxman]

I beg to differ, nothing is unstuckable, only expensivelyrecoverable. I saw a JD 790 Excavator building a drainage ditch over a stream bank stuck, not a pretty sight, another 790, a cat 345 and a D8 crawler on scene before she came out. Fellow paying the bill was less than impressed, at least no one got hurt or fired. I agree the tele-handlers are quite impressive. Personally I think its like comparing a F-350, to a Volvo, so a Stockcar. They all haul our rear ends around, but definitely different use machines.

I beg to differ with your beg to differ. The two different compact telehandlers that I have owned are unstuckable! And I have the pictures to prove it. When the axles are out of sight in the silt, all 4 wheels are spinning and it isn't moving forward, it is stuck. Then you retract the bucket, curl the bucket down, lower the boom, pull it into reverse, spin the wheels, extend the boom, pushing the machine backward. Then repeat the procedure until it is unstuck. :thumbsup:

This is the first one, a V518, stuck.


Unstuck. Had to shovel the silt off of the floorboard


Sold the V518, bought The V417 that I still have. Here it is stuck in the mud.


Unstuck. It pushed itself out!


They are unstuckable!!! :laughing:
This is another Unstuckable! http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...t/160568-compact-telehandler.html#post3526054

 

[tessiers]

The construction company I work for owns 2 of them, and we rent them consistently, I have many hours in them, I assure you they can and do get stuck. I personally had one of our Genie 6000 lb machines in soft clay up to the deck, tried the push trick until I couldn't move. When you push down with the front to dig in you also push down the rear going deeper in soft materials. Luckily enough we had a 30 ton RT crane on sight that popped it out. Had one slide down into a retention pond full of snow one year, no amount of pushing would get it out, boom would push it 20' up the bank, as soon as I picked up the bucket she would slide back into the pond, chains may have saved the day. We had an excavator on site that did the trick that day. I will say they are quite impressive and I would love to own one for moving round bales especially. I do not think they are as durable for ground breaking tasks, have seen at least 2 with major structural failures of the boom, but I saw an excavator with the main boom fail so I guess you can break about anything if you don't care about it. They are definitely versatile. Can't wait to see the price on them get into my range.

 

[paulharvey]

Ive had one pretty darn close to stuck. Even a track hoe can get stuck, once suction gets to the main body of machine and the boom is just pushing right through mud, youll find out about stuckable.

 

[arrow]

I beg to differ with your beg to differ. The two different compact telehandlers that I have owned are unstuckable! And I have the pictures to prove it. When the axles are out of sight in the silt, all 4 wheels are spinning and it isn't moving forward, it is stuck. Then you retract the bucket, curl the bucket down, lower the boom, pull it into reverse, spin the wheels, extend the boom, pushing the machine backward. Then repeat the procedure until it is unstuck. :thumbsup:

This is the first one, a V518, stuck.
View attachment 347831 View attachment 347832 View attachment 347833

Unstuck. Had to shovel the silt off of the floorboard
View attachment 347842 View attachment 347843

Sold the V518, bought The V417 that I still have. Here it is stuck in the mud.
View attachment 347834 View attachment 347835 View attachment 347836 View attachment 347837 View attachment 347838

Unstuck. It pushed itself out!
View attachment 347840 View attachment 347841

They are unstuckable!!! :laughing:
This is another Unstuckable! http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...t/160568-compact-telehandler.html#post3526054

I always loved your tele-handler X. I did not think they were as small as what you describe. My little 3016 Mahindra is 13' long.

 

[Xfaxman]

The construction company I work for owns 2 of them, and we rent them consistently, I have many hours in them, I assure you they can and do get stuck. I personally had one of our Genie 6000 lb machines in soft clay up to the deck, tried the push trick until I couldn't move. When you push down with the front to dig in you also push down the rear going deeper in soft materials. Luckily enough we had a 30 ton RT crane on sight that popped it out. Had one slide down into a retention pond full of snow one year, no amount of pushing would get it out, boom would push it 20' up the bank, as soon as I picked up the bucket she would slide back into the pond, chains may have saved the day. We had an excavator on site that did the trick that day. I will say they are quite impressive and I would love to own one for moving round bales especially. I do not think they are as durable for ground breaking tasks, have seen at least 2 with major structural failures of the boom, but I saw an excavator with the main boom fail so I guess you can break about anything if you don't care about it. They are definitely versatile. Can't wait to see the price on them get into my range.

Sounds like you are talking about fullsize telehandlers. A Genie with 6000 lbs of lift, is not a compact telehandler. And one with 20' boom extension, is not a compact telehandler.

The compact telehandler boom is made for ground engaging attachments. The teeth on my 6' bucket are worn to a razor sharp edge from working in sand rock.



So far mine is unstuckable. :laughing:

Maybe next time it won't unstuck itself.

 

[Xfaxman]

I always loved your tele-handler, X. I did not think they were as small as what you describe. My little 3016 Mahindra is 13' long.

Yep, 6' wide, 6.5' high and 13' long. Top speed is 15.5 mph and it will lift over 5,000 pounds! :thumbsup:

Here it is next to the 5' wide Toolcat.

 

[Observer]

I have operated all of the above. Some are harder to stick than others, but all are subject. Some are easier to unstick themselves after stuck than others. It depends up upon conditions and just how stuck as well as one's ability to unstick one's self. But, it's always fun regardless! I have stuck a dozer (1250 Case) in a sea of semi liquid garbage and took about an hour and a half to back out of it. Yuk!! Skid Steer? Can sink like a rock in the proper conditions. I love operating.