Comparison Understanding the Sub-Compact tractor choices.

[AxleHub]

Possibly others like me are a little overwhelmed at the number of product choices available in the SubCompact tractor market. And even after purchase - surprises and new learning keep popping up.

But lets start with a couple of point before even mention brands and models.

A. The SubCompact market of tractors is an important category for many and one big reason is manueverability. If sure-footedness on sidehills and slopes and lawns are part of an intended need . . a smaller sized Compact tractor is not the same as most models of subcompacts. Same is true if tighter turning circles in tighter spaces is a need.

B. Power is often a topic . . yet a 25+ hp diesel in a Compact tractor and a 25+ hp in a SubCompact of the same brand should have very similar "power" . . so "capacity" is probably a far better issue as well as how much and how often can a SubCompact be used weekly or monthly compared to a small Compact tractor for any given buyer or owner.

C. Often comments are made about "buying bigger than you think you need". But isn't that logically more a "rush to purchase" or a "weak research effort" than it is an actual understanding of "the needs" ?

D. Lastly, I believe SubCompact prospects and buyers need to factor in some issues that many threads don't seem to mention. Some examples are:

1. Finding implements and attachments engineered and built for SubCompacts rather than every choice being the general market. As an example . . a full set of forks that weighs 100 pounds and a general market set that weighs 225 pounds is a 125 pounds payload difference for a SubCompact . . that's a lot of difference on my tractor . . yet many don't even know products exist like that.

2. Transporting a SubCompact requires less vehicle and less trailer.

3. Space to store is less . . yet PROPERLY chosen, SubCompacts can comfortably accommodate small bodies or 6'6" 350 pounders alike.

chime in on these points above or as I start mentioning some brands and models.

 

[AxleHub]

Some of the most familiar engines used in U.S SubCompacts are:

Kubota . . . Yanmar . . . Iseki . . . TYM . . . ??

Some oddities in the market are engine size for TLB product.

Massey offers a 22.5 and 25 hp TLB choices while Kubota has only a 23 hp TLB. And Deere has a 23 hp TLB in the 1025R yet I'm not awhere of a TLB choice in the 1023r or a larger engine choice in a SubCompact.

Yanmar makes a 21 hp TLB . . and Mahindra seems to offer TLB models in a couple engine sizes of SubCompact. Does LS or New Holland even have a true SubCompact choice? I'm not familiar with Kioti or Branson. TYM has 1 size engine in SubCompact category.

Threads often refer to kubota and Deere SubCompacts yet too often Kioti and LS are mentioned but not Massey . . considering Massey offers 2 tlb sizes plus 2 non-tlb choices . . All with long warranties and name recognition . . I have to wonder why Massey isn't mentioned more while Mahindra, Kioti, and LS are mentioned yet are not cheaper than Massey products (at least not in my past searches).

 

[Garandman]

//C. Often comments are made about "buying bigger than you think you need". But isn't that logically more a "rush to purchase" or a "weak research effort" than it is an actual understanding of "the needs" ?//

Glad I didn't listen to that advice or I'd have a tractor that wouldn't fit down most of our trails. bought an L3200, I could easily get by with something smaller but the price difference wasn't that great.

 

[AxleHub]

Recently a few threads mentioned that having a single hydro pump or having 2 pumps was not an issue one way or the other. But I have to wonder at the logic of such an opinion.

We all know that in any activity of a tractor . . Steering is involved . . and that means hydro flow for the power steering and maneuverability. We also know that in SubCompact units that have 2 pumps, 1 is dedicated to the power steering. I would think knowing that at all times the power steering is getting a full flow and not having to share it . . Is a real benefit.

Similarly, it would seem engineers could better plan for hydro needs without stalling out . . When a second pump services all other hydro power draw needs.

And I for one enjoy not having to have my unit at its highest rpms when I'm adjusting my bucket or forks or quick attaching or detaching at full decible range or when in a barn or garage. In addition . . I like to adjust my rpm to my needs . . not mandated by a requirement. I mow with my mmm mulcher at 2750 rpm because it is the sweet spot for smoothness and sound level and cutting performance. 3200 would be louder and gain me little and 2500 rpm would also be louder and non-beneficial.

Fel lifting a light load at 2200 rpm is quick and quiet and maximum lifting is a higher rpm choice "when I need it and not other wise". Meanwhile, my steering at any rpm speed above idle is smooth and not hindered. And when I run my boom sprayer unit . . 2000 rpm or 2200 again, meana my tractir is more fuel efficient and quiet and requires less cylinder rotations to get the job done well.

I don't know how many SubCompacts don't have 2 hydro pumps . . but I do recognize that "it makes no difference" is not true for my activities.

 

[prichard]

I'm confused
Is this about SCUTs or Sub-compacts TLBs?

 

[AxleHub]

I'm confused
Is this about SCUTs or Sub-compacts TLBs?

Well in one post it was about scut tlb units and in another post it was about scuts with 1 or 2 hydro pumps.

In both of those posts its about scuts (SubCompact tractors).

TLBs (tractor-loader-backhoe) units are typically the most expensive options for each vrand of scut (sub compact tractor). Yet some brands don't offer their biggest/best engines for their tlb choices while other brands more than one tlb choice in a scut.

 

[check]

I'm confused Is this about SCUTs or Sub-compacts TLBs?

Good question. I got the Kubota BX25 because it was a TLB subcompact which had a seriously heavy duty sub frame to it. I may have been wrong about it, but it seemed to me at the time that none of the other competing tractors in 1998 had a strong enough sub frame that was dedicated for having a backhoe attachment (the frame - mounted BH, not the three point hitch munted BH). And the backhoe was very important to me, as I was going to be using it a lot.

 

[Chooglin]

Are you saying the gc series has 2 hydro pumps ?.......if so , I THINK you are mistaken !

 

[AxleHub]

Are you saying the gc series has 2 hydro pumps ?.......if so , I THINK you are mistaken !

The Massey GC17xx series has a total flow rating for the tractor as follows:


GC1705 and GC1710 = 6.3 gpm with power steering of 2 gpm and all else being 4.3 gpn

GC1715 and GC1720 = 6.8 gpm with power steering of 2 gpm and all else being 4.8 gpm

 

[Chooglin]

Yes ,but they share a "SINGLE" gear driven pump !!!

 

[davrow]

We all know that in any activity of a tractor . . Steering is involved . .

Sorry, just don't see it. Other than mowing/mulching/brush hogging, steering is not done simultaneously with other hydraulic activities. FEL, straight in, straight out. Backhoe, stationary. Blading, does not need constant hydraulic flow. Snow blower, mostly not steering while actively blowing.

You can still steer at any RPM, so I just can't see saying "two pumps are better than one" if one is simply dedicated to steering.

Now one pump for your sprayer and one for your mulcher I could understand...

 

[AxleHub]

Yes ,but they share a "SINGLE" gear driven pump !!!

Dual hydraulic pumps is not unique to just 1 product or brand. Yanmar did it with theur Cub Cadet product already in 2006 and onward thru the 2013 model. And there are more.

Probably the best known single pump scut producer is kubota on their bx line. It is also why a bx needs to be revved up to get the fel to move with any speed . . As I recall a bx runs at 3200 rpm.

If Massey GC17xx product did not have the dual hydraulic pumps . . It would mimic the bx product pattern.

 

[Chooglin]

Well , I will try to explain this in a way that may make sense.

The 4.3 gpm is the flow at remotes , the remotes never see the full 6.3 gpm because 2 gpm are dedicated to the power steering !!!!...............look at the spec sheet !!

The gc series has a single pump , that feeds all hydrolics , if that's not the case , I will gladly eat my words !

 

[prichard]

You have to increase engine speed because that's where engines work. They, like your car, are not intended to operate at idle.

 

[AxleHub]

Well , I will try to explain this in a way that may make sense.

The 4.3 gpm is the flow at remotes , the remotes never see the full 6.3 gpm because 2 gpm are dedicated to the power steering !!!!...............look at the spec sheet !!

The gc series has a single pump , that feeds all hydrolics , if that's not the case , I will gladly eat my words !

Well you may be correct. I was just watching a you tube comparison of the gc1720 vs bx25d and it shows a dramatic difference in hydro effect between the 2 units for responsiveness and speed of movement. In that you tube of video the gc1720 at 1500 rpm moves about the same fel speed as the Kubota at 2500 rpm.

But if it isn't dual pumps . . Then how is there such a dramatic difference ?

I'll leave this particular point to smarter or more mechanical minds than me

 

[Industrial Toys]

I have always wondered about the importance of having a seperate steering pump. But then I am not a farmer. I guess, you don't realize how important it may be, until you suddenly don't have steering. You could be at the headland, raise your implement, go to steer and nothing!

 

[Chooglin]

But if it isn't dual pumps . . Then how is there such a dramatic difference ?

My guess would be , that MF uses different gearing , between the engine and the pump to allow the pump to run at the same rpm's as the competition without the engine running at the hire rpm's.........just a guess though !!!

 

[AxleHub]

My guess would be , that MF uses different gearing , between the engine and the pump to allow the pump to run at the same rpm's as the competition without the engine running at the hire rpm's.........just a guess though !!!

Knowing Kubota's skill at engineering etc. and how Yanmar used to hammer on Kubota's dependence on high rpms for responsiveness . . I'd guess long long ago Kubota would have changed their setup if it were as easy andvsimple as you suggest.

And you probably remember already years ago how poor flow used to effect steering issues on some scut and higher end lawn tractor issues at low rpms. I'm guessing if it truly is not dual hrdraulic pumps on the Massey units . . then Iseki has out-engineered Kubota . . and that would be quite a feat also.

 

[jenkinsph]

Very common to have one pump with two isolated sections with different sized gears. For the MF GC 1715 it has one pump with two sections, one section is for steering with 2.0 gpm flow at rated speed and one section with wider gears with 4.8 gpm flow for everything else. The suction side usually has a shared manifold, the outlet or pressure sides are separate with their own relief valves back to the tank. All of this is the "norm" for open center systems today.

Closed center systems usually have one full pressure variable flow pump. Most will have a priority valve so that if the pressure drops below a fixed setting say 1900 psi the flow is all directed to steering (and brakes in some cases).

 

[AxleHub]

While the SubCompact (scut) market has in recent years been an active part of tractor sales . . a more interesting detail would be if sales this year by brand are changing compared to last year ? In other words, are some brands taking marketshare away from others or are numbers of sales growing because buyers are actively adfing new purchases and expanding the total scut sales for everyone?

Recently in another thread, a poster said a very small Massey dealer had sold 14 units in 2015 and already by August this year they were over 50. Obviously the market has a bunch of dealers and brands in it that werent in scut sales 10 years ago. Has it been a bubble or a healthy expansion of the market ? If that tiny Massey dealer I referenced went from 14 last year to already 50 this year . . Is that negatively effecting the other dealers in that area like kubota and jd sales etc. etc. ? Or are they all selling more ?

Anyone hearing info on scut activity at their dealerships ?