Wet set concrete anchor brackets pole barn

[747driver]

There is always an industry out there making a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. Treated posts in the ground will never rot on you if there isn't any standing water around the posts after it rains. And if you build a building that has standing water around it's walls when it rains, you're building wont last no matter what you use.

Those little brackets remove the sheer strength of a post in the ground, so if you use them, then you need to brace your walls to make up for that loss of strength.

Where you planning on pouring a concrete pad for the post bases? Or where you going to pour an entire footing all the way around your building? Or are you going to pour a concrete foundation with a floor for the entire building? If you are pouring concrete, then stick framing and would be a better option then using the metal bases. Are you planning on insulating it or finishing off the interior walls? If so, stick framing becomes a better way to build then pole building because you will still need to frame up the wall anyway.

Be careful over thinking something that is already well thought out and proven 100 years ago.

Thanks Eddie...I always value your thoughts ! I was going to pour 12 inch x 4' piers and embed the Forever Post bracket. I am not going to pour a floor until later. Morton buildings who I think is a top polebarn builder and manufacture has started to use the Perma Column design. Time will tell if they hold up. Not going to insulate the walls as I won't be in it everyday. More like many storage shelves ! The walls will be 16' high. I know if done properly poles in the ground are fine. Just always willing to research new ideas. This all said...I was leaning to build a 'red iron' building but you really have to build a good concrete foundation. Also you have to make sure you plan where all your door and window openings will be as it has to engineered for those. Hard to make changes after the fact if it involves cutting the girt braces.. Polebarns are much more flexible in terms of being able to add windows and doors later on if you want.

 

[747driver]

I usually get firewood every year but don't burn it all, so it just keeps piling up.

I bought all the material on my own, the plans were in my head. Kind of made it up as I went along.

In the "Rural Living" thread I detailed the building of my barn. The title is "Raising a Barn".

Mine is 72X57X12 the awning is 12' of the 57'. Total cost was about 30 grand. I did all the work except the concrete and big doors. There were a couple small mistakes along the way, but only a trained eye would catch them. My family and friends sure didn't see any of them.

View attachment 539250View attachment 539251

Thats a big barn and good price ! I just don't have the time to build myself...although I would luv to the DW wants it done yesterday ! I will look at your 'Raising a Barn'.

 

[Rustyiron]

Yes...it would add about $2500 to my cost.

Yes but I'm with you, unless you live in basically a Desert, like *CatDriver or are building on gravelly "glacial till", I'll never sink a post into normal clay/shale type soils that hold water for a building again. To me a building should be able to last indefinitely, now that's not without any repairs or maintenance. Repairing a post that also structural that's rotted is not my idea of fun. I tend to favor Permacolumn's concrete post with the bracket attached allowing your wood post to be well above grade that unless you do a bunch of concrete formwork, a wet set bracket can't give you.

* CD, don't get me wrong, I love UT!

 

[EddieWalker]

I was going to pour 12 inch x 4' piers and embed the Forever Post bracket.

Your logic is sound, I'm just not a fan of posts standing on top of concrete for my walls. When building anything, one of the hardest challenges for me is in making it simple. Keep it simple. If we set a post in the ground, it will stop a car at highway speeds. Just think of power poles. If we pout it on top of concrete, and attache it to the concrete with a bracket, we have a break away design just like street lights. Both are capable of standing on there own, but the simple design of the post in the ground is both simpler and a lot stronger.

While not an expert, I've repaired quite a few fence posts. 100% of the time, the post rots at the surface. Once I get several inches into the ground, the post looks brand new. They might be soaking wet, or them might be bone dry, it doesn't matter since there is no air that has ever been down there in the hole with the good wood of the post. Here we have very acid red soil, red iron ore, sugar sand, black clay and about a dozen other colors of clay. We also get about 4 feet of rain per year and we have very high humidity all summer long.

If a fence post does not have a slope around it's base, it will rot. If it has a slope, or is higher then the surrounding ground, it will last forever.

Fence posts are not barn posts. A barn post should never see rain, or standing water. NEVER. If a barn post rots, it's because there was standing water at the surface. And that's where it will rot, not in the ground, below the surface. Keep it simple, think of the reason for the rot, and it's easy to avoid it.

 

[Oldoak]

Any wooden post, even treated posts, that are buried in the ground will eventually rot. How many years it will take depends upon the treatment applied and the soil composition. Standing water, if that conditions exists, only hastens the decomposition process.

That is why modern pole building engineering produces non-ground contact designs and still have the same structural integrity such as wind shear and other stress factors, etc. as buildings with in-ground posts. :thumbsup:

 

[EddieWalker]

Have you watched Oak Island? They are digging up untreated logs that have been in the ground hundreds of years. But using your example, the same can be said for concrete. Eventually it will crack, break apart and move in the ground. Anything and everything will fail without exception. But for the money, it's very easy to build a barn that will last a hundred years with wood posts.

 

[ovrszd]

Have you watched Oak Island? They are digging up untreated logs that have been in the ground hundreds of years. But using your example, the same can be said for concrete. Eventually it will crack, break apart and move in the ground. Anything and everything will fail without exception. But for the money, it's very easy to build a barn that will last a hundred years with wood posts.

Growing up I spent a lot of time fishing a nearby river. After a flooding Spring we always enjoyed exploring the banks where the river was bending and washing the bank away. I've saw ax hewn logs sticking out of the banks. Were probably used in a building 200 years ago that got washed away. They could be reused.

Ground level is the problem and as you've said many times in this thread if you have standing water there nothing is going to last.

 

[747driver]

Growing up I spent a lot of time fishing a nearby river. After a flooding Spring we always enjoyed exploring the banks where the river was bending and washing the bank away. I've saw ax hewn logs sticking out of the banks. Were probably used in a building 200 years ago that got washed away. They could be reused.

Ground level is the problem and as you've said many times in this thread if you have standing water there nothing is going to last.

You have to keep the area water free and good drainage so if it does get wet it dries out quickly.. Its due to oxygen being present. When submerged wood doesn't have a oxygen supply it last forever.

 

[747driver]

Any wooden post, even treated posts, that are buried in the ground will eventually rot. How many years it will take depends upon the treatment applied and the soil composition. Standing water, if that conditions exists, only hastens the decomposition process.

That is why modern pole building engineering produces non-ground contact designs and still have the same structural integrity such as wind shear and other stress factors, etc. as buildings with in-ground posts. :thumbsup:

I watched the Morton Building videos on the Perma Column technology. They use metal strapping for diagonal bracing to help with shear loss. Morton has been around since 1903 .....they wouldn't build like this if it didn't work and yes it does cost more for the Perma products.

 

[747driver]

Your logic is sound, I'm just not a fan of posts standing on top of concrete for my walls. When building anything, one of the hardest challenges for me is in making it simple. Keep it simple. If we set a post in the ground, it will stop a car at highway speeds. Just think of power poles. If we pout it on top of concrete, and attache it to the concrete with a bracket, we have a break away design just like street lights. Both are capable of standing on there own, but the simple design of the post in the ground is both simpler and a lot stronger.

While not an expert, I've repaired quite a few fence posts. 100% of the time, the post rots at the surface. Once I get several inches into the ground, the post looks brand new. They might be soaking wet, or them might be bone dry, it doesn't matter since there is no air that has ever been down there in the hole with the good wood of the post. Here we have very acid red soil, red iron ore, sugar sand, black clay and about a dozen other colors of clay. We also get about 4 feet of rain per year and we have very high humidity all summer long.

If a fence post does not have a slope around it's base, it will rot. If it has a slope, or is higher then the surrounding ground, it will last forever.

Fence posts are not barn posts. A barn post should never see rain, or standing water. NEVER. If a barn post rots, it's because there was standing water at the surface. And that's where it will rot, not in the ground, below the surface. Keep it simple, think of the reason for the rot, and it's easy to avoid it.

I agree with your view. We have rocky/limestone and what I call Georgia/Tennessee orange soil. It drains quickly and dries out quickly. Always looking to see if there is another product that might work.

 

[mopardude318]

I am now down to a pole barn or 'red iron' building. My only major dislike on the pole barn is putting the post in the ground. I came across this foundation bracket today ( Forever Post wet set column bracket ). Really like it and could be a game changer. I knew about the Perma Column bracket but I think this is a much better product. They are $50 each and each weighs 23 Lbs.

Forever column wet and dry set post anchors - YouTube
Video for forever column wet set▶ 3:36
Forever column wet and dry set post anchors - YouTube

Item # SWP66, Sturdi-Wall Plus - Wet Set Concrete Anchor Brackets On Midwest Perma-Column


Has anyone used something like this ?

Thanks

I am looking for the same thing. I don't mind putting the posts in the ground in my area. Only dilemma right now is I'm having concrete poured maybe next week for a small pole barn, it's 24' wide by 28' in length. The slab will be 6" thick with a 12 inch x 12 inch footing.

So should I use these set in place anchors, (I want to use 8x8 posts) OR have the slab built and completed because everything is already scheduled then later I can drill and set the posts on the outside of the slab, then fill in the remaining area with concrete.

 

[Rustyiron]

"Dude", I imagine that you have access to a whole different lumber market that we do back east, but 8x8? Is that a Cali earthquake thing. Have you checked to see if they make them that big? There's not much to them to fab up yourself. As for the slab, it's prolly just me, but I'd hate to have 2 pours and all that extra joint to look at besides the extra work forming around the bars that I'd want to tie both pours together.

 

[ovrszd]

"Dude", I imagine that you have access to a whole different lumber market that we do back east, but 8x8? Is that a Cali earthquake thing. Have you checked to see if they make them that big? There's not much to them to fab up yourself. As for the slab, it's prolly just me, but I'd hate to have 2 pours and all that extra joint to look at besides the extra work forming around the bars that I'd want to tie both pours together.

And the fact that your 12"x12" footing is wasted.

How about building a stick building on top of your slab??

 

[747driver]

I am looking for the same thing. I don't mind putting the posts in the ground in my area. Only dilemma right now is I'm having concrete poured maybe next week for a small pole barn, it's 24' wide by 28' in length. The slab will be 6" thick with a 12 inch x 12 inch footing.

So should I use these set in place anchors, (I want to use 8x8 posts) OR have the slab built and completed because everything is already scheduled then later I can drill and set the posts on the outside of the slab, then fill in the remaining area with concrete.

If I was to use anchors here is what I would use. Forever column wet and dry set post anchors - YouTube
Video for forever column wet set reviews▶ 3:36
Forever column wet and dry set post anchors - YouTube

Thats going to be a pain digging holes beside a new slab.Is the 6 inch slab on top of the 12' footing making it 18' total? How tall is the eave walls ? 8x8s are to big for your size. Usually you set the post first then pour the slab or dig your holes and fill with concrete and pour the slab at the same time,setting your anchors when you pour everything.

 

[mopardude318]

"Dude", I imagine that you have access to a whole different lumber market that we do back east, but 8x8? Is that a Cali earthquake thing. Have you checked to see if they make them that big? There's not much to them to fab up yourself. As for the slab, it's prolly just me, but I'd hate to have 2 pours and all that extra joint to look at besides the extra work forming around the bars that I'd want to tie both pours together.

Rustyiron,

8x8's are pretty common here, even available in 8 footers at Home Depot! They are what a lot people use around here for pole barns.

And the fact that your 12"x12" footing is wasted.

How about building a stick building on top of your slab??

I wouldn't think the footing would be wasted, I thought one of the purposes of a footing is to lock the slab in the to ground to prevent settling/sliding?

I suppose I could stick frame on top of the slab if I wanted a fully enclosed garage, but I wanted a traditional pole barn type barn...

If I was to use anchors here is what I would use. Forever column wet and dry set post anchors - YouTube
Video for forever column wet set reviews▶ 3:36
Forever column wet and dry set post anchors - YouTube

Thats going to be a pain digging holes beside a new slab.Is the 6 inch slab on top of the 12' footing making it 18' total? How tall is the eave walls ? 8x8s are to big for your size. Usually you set the post first then pour the slab or dig your holes and fill with concrete and pour the slab at the same time,setting your anchors when you pour everything.

Yes, 6" slab on top of 12" footing. I was thinking of either 12 or 14 foot eave walls...

 

[fishman]

After building three different barns I prefer a concrete footing or slab, a weld plate, and structural metal posts instead of wood. If you do that, there is no possibility of rot and your building is easy to build square.