Do we expect too much out of our trucks?

[mustangsallysdad]

Agreed--this TBN forum has a wealth of info on trucks and towing, but for a newby like me, it's a job to sort out the facts from the opinion when making buying decisions.

For example, I need to tow my parade tractors (one at a time), which weigh up to 4500 lb. The towing will amount to less than 4000 miles per year. After looking at 1T diesels and 20ft GN trailers, I'm pretty much going with a 3/4T gasser and an 18ft bumper pull car hauler. Lately I've been interested in the F250 with the 3-valve/cyl, 8 cyl 5.4L Triton gasser. I know many folks think the 5.4L is a puny engine for serious towing. So I tried to educate myself on that score.

I found the torque power curves for the stock 3V 5.4L

View attachment 159448

and for the much prized 1998.5 24V Cummins 5.9L turbo diesel (stock). Cummins, of course, is by far the preferred diesel engine for 3/4 and 1T PUs and the 24V enjoys an impressive reputation.

View attachment 159449

Diesels are touted for their low end torque (the grunt in towing), so I looked that these two engines at 2000 rpm. Interestingly, the hp and torque numbers are nearly the same

130 hp and 350 lb-ft for the Ford 5.4L
and
130 hp and 360 lb-ft for the Cummins 5.9L

Remember, that the Triton is a normally-aspirated, fuel injected engine while the Cummins uses a turbo to get its numbers.

Sure, the Cummins gets better fuel mileage and you can tune that engine to nearly double the hp and torque. And the resale value is better for the diesel, yadda, yadda, yadda.

But I'm only interested in doing a pretty simple towing job and can't justify the extra $5-6K for the Cummins and I'm not interested in performance enhancements. Stock engines will do my job fine.

Moral of this story: you need to do some legwork to get to the bottom of things.

I don't think you'd be dissapointed in the 5.4 for the use you describe...it should be more than enough to get the job done.

 

[mustangsallysdad]

Believe me, I LOVE the classics, cars and trucks. There is just no way the older stuff can compare to the new stuff. Technology has made them more complicated, but also much better. Frames are stiffer, engines make more power, engines are more drivable, transmissions have more gears, they haul and tow a heavier load etc.

On the other hand, the towing wars and weight carrying wars are getting way out of hand. Pretty soon a half ton will be rated to haul 20,000lbs in the bed, have a 12 speed transmission and a huge Cummings diesel engine. Oh wait, they already make those, there called semi's.

You mentioned classics and it reminded me of something else...my Grandpa had a HUGE old Ford station wagon (remember those?) with a 352 big block that he pulled one of those shiny Airstream travel trailers with...I remember it looking like it was pointed toward the sky from the tongue weight...but, he travelled all over with it.

 

[two_bit_score]

>>>You get the idea. What do you guys and gals think?<<<<

I think you make a great point.

But, if one is going to buy new then study and get other opinions and get all you can for what you have to spend.

 

[20 20]

Reading this thread and thinking of yesteryear {early 70's} for some reason this tune just popped into my head. How many remember? Who were the famous couple that sang it so out of key? Try to remember without using the net.

Boy, the way Glen Miller played. Songs that made the hit parade.
Guys like us, we had it made. Those were the days.
Didn't need no welfare state. Everybody pulled his weight.
Gee, our old LaSalle ran great. Those were the days.
And you know who you were then, girls were girls and men were men.
Mister, we could use a man like Herbert Hoover again.
People seemed to be content. Fifty dollars paid the rent.
Freaks were in a circus tent. Those were the days.
Take a little Sunday spin, go to watch the Dodgers win.
Have yourself a dandy day that cost you under a fin.
Hair was short and skirts were long. Kate Smith really sold a song.
I don't know just what went wrong. Those Were The Days

 

[mustangsallysdad]

Reading this thread and thinking of yesteryear {early 70's} for some reason this tune just popped into my head. How many remember? Who were the famous couple that sang it so out of key? Try to remember without using the net.

Boy, the way Glen Miller played. Songs that made the hit parade.
Guys like us, we had it made. Those were the days.
Didn't need no welfare state. Everybody pulled his weight.
Gee, our old LaSalle ran great. Those were the days.
And you know who you were then, girls were girls and men were men.
Mister, we could use a man like Herbert Hoover again.
People seemed to be content. Fifty dollars paid the rent.
Freaks were in a circus tent. Those were the days.
Take a little Sunday spin, go to watch the Dodgers win.
Have yourself a dandy day that cost you under a fin.
Hair was short and skirts were long. Kate Smith really sold a song.
I don't know just what went wrong. Those Were The Days

Archie & Edith Bunker!

 

[20 20]

Archie & Edith Bunker!

:thumbsup: you get a cookie

 

[mustangsallysdad]

:thumbsup: you get a cookie

It's not one of those computer cookie "thingies", is it? I like oatmeal raisin!!!

 

[Verticaltrx]

I think nowadays there is about a 50/50 split of people who expect too much out of a pickup and those who expect too little. What I mean by this is there is the whole 'my diesel pickup is a big rig' crowd who thinks its ok to pull 20K with a pickup, and also those who think they need a 1-ton truck to pull a small camper or boat trailer. It doesn't seem to me there are too many people left that buy a pickup, use it to its full-ability (but not over) and are happy with what they have.

I have an '88 F-250 4x4 with a fuel injected 460, ZF5pd, D50 front/10.25" rear, 3.55 LS and it tows great for what it was intended. Its got 230K on the ticker and still runs great, still gets 13mpg at 55mph on the highway.

Back in '88 it was a top of the line 3/4ton tow rig, and people were well pleased with trucks like this including big-block Chevys and Dodges. I regularly tow up to 10-12K with it, haul a pallet load of fertilizer or cement, load of firewood, 60-70 bales of hay, etc in the bed. IMO this is about as much as any pickup should tow or haul regardless of what they rate them at nowadays. If I need to haul more I use our '75 Chevy C-60.

 

[two_bit_score]

I think nowadays there is about a 50/50 split of people who expect too much out of a pickup and those who expect too little.
Back in '88 it was a top of the line 3/4ton tow rig, and people were well pleased with trucks like this including big-block Chevys and Dodges. I regularly tow up to 10-12K with it, haul a pallet load of fertilizer or cement, load of firewood, 60-70 bales of hay, etc in the bed. IMO this is about as much as any pickup should tow or haul regardless of what they rate them at nowadays. If I need to haul more I use our '75 Chevy C-60.

You're right but not everyone has that option as you do. Most people are trying to get a truck to do 'everything, no matter what they might need to to do'.

 

[Diamondpilot]

Vertricaltrx

That seems all well and fine and I agree the truck you had was the best money could buy back then but the simple fact is things are getting bigger and heavier. Drive the interstate any Saturday morning and around here every 10th vehicle is a diesel 3/4 or 1 ton pulling a 38' 5th wheel weighing in at 15,000# or someone on the way to the lake pulling a comparable load. With fuel prices going up people also want to make fewer trips. I can remember when I thought nothing of going to the quarry getting just 2 tons of gravel in the bed. Now days I will not get any less than 7 tons in the dump trailer.

Chris

 

[mustangsallysdad]

I think nowadays there is about a 50/50 split of people who expect too much out of a pickup and those who expect too little. What I mean by this is there is the whole 'my diesel pickup is a big rig' crowd who thinks its ok to pull 20K with a pickup, and also those who think they need a 1-ton truck to pull a small camper or boat trailer. It doesn't seem to me there are too many people left that buy a pickup, use it to its full-ability (but not over) and are happy with what they have.

I have an '88 F-250 4x4 with a fuel injected 460, ZF5pd, D50 front/10.25" rear, 3.55 LS and it tows great for what it was intended. Its got 230K on the ticker and still runs great, still gets 13mpg at 55mph on the highway.

Back in '88 it was a top of the line 3/4ton tow rig, and people were well pleased with trucks like this including big-block Chevys and Dodges. I regularly tow up to 10-12K with it, haul a pallet load of fertilizer or cement, load of firewood, 60-70 bales of hay, etc in the bed. IMO this is about as much as any pickup should tow or haul regardless of what they rate them at nowadays. If I need to haul more I use our '75 Chevy C-60.

You have what I consider a "perfect" truck...looks good, works good. And man, do I miss the look of those old boxy Fords...that was my favorite body style...still miss my '90 model. Kinda miss a stick too.

 

[Verticaltrx]

You're right but not everyone has that option as you do. Most people are trying to get a truck to do 'everything, no matter what they might need to to do'.

While I realize this is the case, you can just about pick up a good used 2-ton truck for the cost of the top trim packages on these new diesel trucks. Yes, I realize the additional costs of maintenance, licensing, etc, just making a point about where peoples priorities are. Like I said, there are very few people who buy a truck just for work duty and use it as such these days.

Vertricaltrx

That seems all well and fine and I agree the truck you had was the best money could buy back then but the simple fact is things are getting bigger and heavier. Drive the interstate any Saturday morning and around here every 10th vehicle is a diesel 3/4 or 1 ton pulling a 38' 5th wheel weighing in at 15,000# or someone on the way to the lake pulling a comparable load. With fuel prices going up people also want to make fewer trips. I can remember when I thought nothing of going to the quarry getting just 2 tons of gravel in the bed. Now days I will not get any less than 7 tons in the dump trailer.

Chris

The other simple fact is that 9 out of 10 of those people are not licensed to tow the amount they are hauling, and if they were they probably wouldn't be using a pickup in the first place. Around here DOT is really cracking down on the 1-ton pickups hauling big gooseneck or pintle hitch trailers, and I think they are completely right in doing so. I've towed way more than my F-250 was rated for (around 18K gooseneck,) and towed similar amounts with a new diesel pickup, and neither was safe, regardless of how much power or brakes the new trucks have. Once you've hauled with a medium-duty or larger truck you will see how unsafe pickups feel hauling these big loads.

You have what I consider a "perfect" truck...looks good, works good. And man, do I miss the look of those old boxy Fords...that was my favorite body style...still miss my '90 model. Kinda miss a stick too.

Thanks, that's part of the reason I keep it going, works and looks good, and it doesn't cost me much. :thumbsup:

 

[20 20]

IMO this is about as much as any pickup should tow or haul regardless of what they rate them at nowadays. If I need to haul more I use our '75 Chevy C-60.

Well said:thumbsup:, I also agree that a lot of these weekend warriors shouldn't be driving anything bigger then a yugo. The load to weight ratio is what bothers me. The newer trucks may have all HP in the world to haul, BUT do they have all the weight and BRAKE POWER to handle or even stop the load? Then even if they can SAFELY handle the complete load is the driver experienced enough????

 

[tlbuser]

It got me thinking back to when I was a kid...my Father and never heard him complain about how hard it was to control. As a matter of fact, I remember him as always being happy behind the wheel, humming, whistling and so forth.

Nice memories to have.

Disclaimer: the following may be politically incorrect.

We, as a society,were less spoiled. Your "rights" were dictated by which side of the paddle got used on your backside My parents grew up through the depression era. Later, Dad had to support his mom, brother, sister, wife and two kids. Nobody was handing out things, you earned what you got.
Big rig drivers were big guys because the truck had to be well, man-handled. It takes arm and leg strength to clutch and steer without power aids. I'm betting your dad and granddad were reasonably healthy in those respected areas too. There were reasons why mom and grandma didn't drive. It wasn't necessarily a "fun thing" to do. It was work, but not as much work as the rest of the day usually involved.
Nowadays, things are made so that anyone (of legal age) can get behind the wheel and drive. Power steering, power brakes, ABS , hydraulic clutches and automatic transmissions were all pointed at getting the most numbers of people behind the wheel as possible. Navigation was by a road map you got from the filling station guy. Satellite radio, HAHA. AM radio on a good day and you didn't have a whole lot of choice for what was on either.

Oh, and things were built to last by people who prided themselves in giving a days work for their wages.

 

[tlbuser]

Then even if they can SAFELY handle the complete load is the driver experienced enough????

Ah, but how do we gain experience except by doing?

In my area, I'm thinking a Yugo is more than some people should be driving. They have no respect for the rules of the road or common courtesy for other drivers. Turn signals are optional, shoulders are travel lanes, turn lanes are bypasses for standing traffic, yellow and red lights only work if they have a traffic camera installed too. IMO, by observation, religious bumper stickers are to be used as cue cards for the driver behind them.

And then there are the bicyclists..............

 

[mustangsallysdad]

Well said:thumbsup:, I also agree that a lot of these weekend warriors shouldn't be driving anything bigger then a yugo. The load to weight ratio is what bothers me. The newer trucks may have all HP in the world to haul, BUT do they have all the weight and BRAKE POWER to handle or even stop the load? Then even if they can SAFELY handle the complete load is the driver experienced enough????

I gotta agree at least on the braking issue...I have 4 wheel discs, but it's still difficult to whoa down a 3 ton UNLOADED truck from highway speeds...it will certainly keep you from tailgating (well, me anyway).

 

[Mace Canute]

The other simple fact is that 9 out of 10 of those people are not licensed to tow the amount they are hauling, and if they were they probably wouldn't be using a pickup in the first place.

You've hit the nail on the head there! One only has to peruse the various "Can I tow this?" threads for proof of that. People need to educate themselves on what is legal and what isn't. The new trucks do out perform the older ones, I don't think there's any real doubt about that...too bad so many of today's drivers haven't improved their knowledge of "towing requirements" accordingly.

 

[20 20]

too bad so many of today's drivers haven't improved their knowledge of "towing requirements" accordingly.

I'm just wondering if it has anything to do with the ease of driving the newer trucks? I know I was raised to listen and feel the machine, it'd tell you if something wasn't right. I get scared when I see some of these corporate trucking companys handing out CDLs like they're candy. We also had a LOT more farm kids that were taught to understand/respect machinery. Now we have texting and loud radios. Beside that vehicle manufacturers state these machines will allmost drive themselves.

No responsibility, no experience and no respect = CRASH

 

[buck12]

The 5.4 Ford seems to take a beating on this forum. I bought an 09 F150 with 5.4, factory brake controller, and towing package. It tows my 6000 lb load well once or twice a month 35 miles one way. No I would not want to tow the 10,000 lb its rated to tow daily. My point is not everyone needs to tow huge loads everyday and that 1/2 ton trucks are able to do the job they were build for.

 

[bearmtnmartin]

I have a 1970 ford f100 and a 2005 dodge 1ton with duals. They are both 4X4's. The old ford which I love to death, had a lot of trouble pulling our 3700 pound travel trailer. Its first and second gear up a lot of BC hills. That one is a 360, which was a decent size back then. Nowadays, we could pull that quite comfortably with our minivan. As for the Dodge, it has 325 horsepower, and 600 plus pounds of torque. That actually compares to a highway truck I sold a few years ago, with a 3176 Cat rated at 315 hp and 800 pounds of torque. And have you seen the ratings on the new diesels? Wow. Not sure why we need that much power, but they just don't compare to trucks even a few years old. I have a friend who believes that highway trucks in Canada will keep getting bigger(2 -48 footers are fairly common in some areas here now) until they equal a boxcar. Pickups are just trying to keep up. look at all the people who drive business class trucks now. Even the biggest pickup won't do it if you are pulling an ever bigger 5'er or if you are a small dinked drug dealer.
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