Wind Turbine ********. Just opened the mail and seen the plan for three massive units

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   / Wind Turbine ********. Just opened the mail and seen the plan for three massive units #61  
   / Wind Turbine ********. Just opened the mail and seen the plan for three massive units #63  
   / Wind Turbine ********. Just opened the mail and seen the plan for three massive units #64  
If this happened very, very slowly, there's a good chance we could adapt. After all, the geological record shows lots of climate changes and the animals and plants evolved to adapt to the new environment. The problem is the rate of change. Climate change is happen at a fast (geologically speaking) rate already and we're making it faster, not slower. The real question is whether we, as a species, can adapt to the changing climate at the rate we're causing the climate to change. Sure, everyone in a low-lying coastal area could be relocated to higher ground over time. Can you relocate New York City, London, most of the Boston-Atlanta metropolitan axis, about half of India, and who knows how much of China to higher ground as fast as the storms are flooding places? Who's going to accept the refugees from NYC or Miami Beach? Where are we going to house them. Who's going to pay for all this? Same story for crops. If the Salinas Valley becomes too dry for farming, there might be somewhere else in the world that opens up. How do you get the infrastructure there as fast as we need it to happen so worldwide food production doesn't dip for a decade or more? Where's the infrastructure come from? How are you going to move all the people to the new place? What do you do with all the people who are already there? Who pays for this?

The last question is really the big one. We're living in a world crippled by debt, facing declines in energy affordability, with only higher costs in the future. How are we going to pay for the massive global upheaval required to adapt to a warmer climate as fast as we're causing that climate to change?

That's easy: just tax the rich and those evil corporations more.
 
   / Wind Turbine ********. Just opened the mail and seen the plan for three massive units #65  
Re: Wind Turbine B*stards. Just opened the mail and seen the plan for three massive u

Send me a check for $15,000 a month and they can build one on my property - LOL

Same here. They can pay me that money and knock down my house if they want too. If I continue to get that pay each month.

2 payments of $15,000.00 and I'll have my house paid off. Then the rest is profit.
 
   / Wind Turbine ********. Just opened the mail and seen the plan for three massive units #66  
I know some of you hate Musk here his new home battery for storing power.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/30/tesla-powerwall_n_7186534.html

Another low-IQ article. Twice, including the opening statement, it incorrectly states that the batteries "store solar energy".
That's as accurate as stating a car's gas tank as holding "stored solar energy".
If you're ready to credit all Earth energy to solar ( true), then so be it. To me, it's just another dumbed down biased article, and Tesla trying to make a profit from batteries, since the battery car sales are still next to nil.
 
   / Wind Turbine ********. Just opened the mail and seen the plan for three massive units #67  
Dark no need to discredit the article. You know what he means, he calls it "storing solar energy" because he's implying that you have solar collectors and no place to put the energy when it exceeds your immediate need. Storage is where it's at. Solar energy stored in a battery is similar to energy stored in petroleum. The each have their costs, challenges (and pollutions).

I know some of you hate Musk here his new home battery for storing power.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/30/tesla-powerwall_n_7186534.html

Big hurdles to overcome but safely storing energy is the solution. Suffice it to say that whenever an alternate energy de-values petroleum, a large marketing effort is necessary to prevent people making changes in acceptance of the new method. In the past, big energy could purchase and scuttle the technology, but with these rich folks like Musk (who want to change the world) they cant. So they have to discredit it, or cause legislation to prevent its acceptance.

It's really a great thing that some of these rich fellas want to change the world. But if they could get rid of the computers (where their $$ came from) we might actually be better off.

When you think of a guy with 90Kwh in the wall of his garage that sounds kinda scary, and I'm sure it can be made "illegal" with $$$ for the lobbyists. But if gasoline was invented in 2015, don't think for a moment they'd let any old dude pump it into his car at every street corner in the country. Or store 60 gallons of gasoline in a couple plastic vehicle tanks in a residential garage.
 
   / Wind Turbine ********. Just opened the mail and seen the plan for three massive units #68  
I know some of you hate Musk here his new home battery for storing power.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/30/tesla-powerwall_n_7186534.html

I was watching some technology show a while back and they were saying that unless there's some incredible breakthrough in technology, they only expect incremental improvements in battery technology. They went on to say that they expect the next world changing breakthrough will be with super capacitors. This would allow you to take a charge in minutes and then discharge it over a long period (just like gassing your car). I can see that being a major game changer.
 
   / Wind Turbine ********. Just opened the mail and seen the plan for three massive units #69  

You are mistaken. Currently the US loses about 6% of its electrical energy to transmission losses. This is because the generation is near the consumption - a major advantage of the concentrated source of energy such as fossil fuels. A 345kV transmission line will lose 4-6% per 100 mile of transmission or roughly 50% for a 1000 miles. There are very few 345kV lines in the US most are 230kV lines which have higher losses. But then again we are not transferring electricity very far. But to have significant solar or wind energy we are going to need a better method of transmission.
 
   / Wind Turbine ********. Just opened the mail and seen the plan for three massive units #70  
Dark no need to discredit the article. You know what he means, he calls it "storing solar energy" because he's implying that you have solar collectors and no place to put the energy when it exceeds your immediate need. Storage is where it's at. Solar energy stored in a battery is similar to energy stored in petroleum. The each have their costs, challenges (and pollutions).



Big hurdles to overcome but safely storing energy is the solution. Suffice it to say that whenever an alternate energy de-values petroleum, a large marketing effort is necessary to prevent people making changes in acceptance of the new method. In the past, big energy could purchase and scuttle the technology, but with these rich folks like Musk (who want to change the world) they cant. So they have to discredit it, or cause legislation to prevent its acceptance.

It's really a great thing that some of these rich fellas want to change the world. But if they could get rid of the computers (where their $$ came from) we might actually be better off.

When you think of a guy with 90Kwh in the wall of his garage that sounds kinda scary, and I'm sure it can be made "illegal" with $$$ for the lobbyists. But if gasoline was invented in 2015, don't think for a moment they'd let any old dude pump it into his car at every street corner in the country. Or store 60 gallons of gasoline in a couple plastic vehicle tanks in a residential garage.


Can you tell us please how the Tesla Powerwall offerings are compelling, if not the most compelling in the home storage market for an average home?

When I run the numbers the Powerwall batteries don't make sense for what I in New Zealand would consider an average household here. I don't know what the average US household peak loads, 'lecky cost (including any fixed charges amortised over the average yearly usage) and daily usage would be.

Even if these Powerwall batteries, noticeably not sold with inverters and with discharge rates far below what an average household would need to meet peak loads, so can only smooth some of utility companies peaks, are targeted squarely at grid connected households either with solar and no storage, or without solar but thinking of going that way, there are far higher cycling and with greater load servicing storage options that amortized over the kWh over their lifetimes, would surely be less $ per kWh than the Powerwall options.
 
   / Wind Turbine ********. Just opened the mail and seen the plan for three massive units #71  
I really think that government wants a system that continually needs maintenance. Like our Highways. Recently a meeting of wind power proponents held a meeting right next to the Niagara river that has a Hydroelectric plant on it built in the 1960's. It is super productive and consistent. More plants along this river would probably make nuclear obsolete. Just like tapping the Alaskan oil fields would make the middle east obsolete. :2cents: Think I'm starting to see a theme here. Keep the public needy and in the dark. :fiery:
 
   / Wind Turbine ********. Just opened the mail and seen the plan for three massive units #72  
You can call it a conspiracy, but its just marketing, lobbying and operating within the bounds of what the citizens tolerate. This is how its all done nowadays. Huge wealth can be generated by manipulating government. Which is always easier if citizens are distracted or confused and certainly while they are divided.

Nowadays??? Its been done like this since the Greeks and Romans! :laughing:
 
   / Wind Turbine ********. Just opened the mail and seen the plan for three massive units #73  
Nowadays??? Its been done like this since the Greeks and Romans! :laughing:

you're right but the Romans had to enforce it, and that could be where we're headed if guys like Musk can be stopped.
 
   / Wind Turbine ********. Just opened the mail and seen the plan for three massive units #74  
Re: Wind Turbine B*stards. Just opened the mail and seen the plan for three massive u

Same here. They can pay me that money and knock down my house if they want too. If I continue to get that pay each month.

2 payments of $15,000.00 and I'll have my house paid off. Then the rest is profit.

I don't know where anyone's getting a $15,000.00 figure. Average is $5-8K per turbine.
https://www.wind-watch.org/documents/five-questions-to-ask-before-signing-a-wind-energy-lease/
 
   / Wind Turbine ********. Just opened the mail and seen the plan for three massive units #75  
Just remember your neighbors paid for a big part of that system, not you! You are welcome. HS

He didn't pay for any of it? Really? Not one penny?
 
   / Wind Turbine ********. Just opened the mail and seen the plan for three massive units #76  
The only issue I have against windmills is their economic viability. Without government subsidies there would not be many built. The other big issue is distribution - where there is lots of wind - think plains states - there is not a lot of consumption and typical electrical transmission loses about half the energy it transmits every 1000 miles. Nobody in this country wants ultrahigh voltage transmission so the transmission losses continue.

How do you get electricity to your county road? Public expense, right? You would have no commercial electricity without government involvement. How do the interstates and roads you drive on get built? The airports you fly in and out of? The hydro dams? ..... Public expense to set up necessary infrastructure.
 
   / Wind Turbine ********. Just opened the mail and seen the plan for three massive units #77  
How do you get electricity to your county road? Public expense, right? You would have no commercial electricity without government involvement. How do the interstates and roads you drive on get built? The airports you fly in and out of? The hydro dams? ..... Public expense to set up necessary infrastructure.

So if I understand you right - if the government pays for it, no matter what the cost, there is no cost?
 
   / Wind Turbine ********. Just opened the mail and seen the plan for three massive units #78  
So if I understand you right - if the government pays for it, no matter what the cost, there is no cost?

You don't understand. There would be no infrastructure. If you don't feel there is a value to the infrastructure, stay off the roads tomorrow. Don't use electricity, don't send kids to school.....
 
   / Wind Turbine ********. Just opened the mail and seen the plan for three massive units #79  
There is a value to infrastructure - the question is how much value. Is it economic to spend the money on the infrastructure being planned? The economics of windmills would not be there without government support as compared to other sources of energy. The cost of electricity will not come down once windmills are in place. The cost of transportation did come down when the highway system was put in. The cost of electricity was lowered tremendously when dams were put in and they should have an almost infinite life. That is not the case with windmills.

Windmills are not infrastructure they are machines that have a finite life that are used by an entity to make a profit. If you amortize the cost of the windmill over the useful life and include expected maintenance and repairs and other assorted costs they are not an economic method of producing electricity.

That is why I asked the question - if the government pays for it, no matter what the cost, there is no cost? The government should have a calculation that shows a benefit. Of course somebody does but it includes some wild assumptions regarding the costs of other energy sources. The bottom line is that unless you intentionally skew the numbers the windmills are not economic.
 
   / Wind Turbine ********. Just opened the mail and seen the plan for three massive units #80  
If you amortize the cost of the windmill over the useful life and include expected maintenance and repairs and other assorted costs they are not an economic method of producing electricity.
Could you please point us to something that substantiates that assertion? I was under the impression that it is actually a very cheap generation method, but it would be great to have it proven otherwise.

Thanks.
 
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