Do we expect too much out of our trucks?

[Raw Dodge]

Agreed--this TBN forum has a wealth of info on trucks and towing, but for a newby like me, it's a job to sort out the facts from the opinion when making buying decisions.

For example, I need to tow my parade tractors (one at a time), which weigh up to 4500 lb. The towing will amount to less than 4000 miles per year. After looking at 1T diesels and 20ft GN trailers, I'm pretty much going with a 3/4T gasser and an 18ft bumper pull car hauler. Lately I've been interested in the F250 with the 3-valve/cyl, 8 cyl 5.4L Triton gasser. I know many folks think the 5.4L is a puny engine for serious towing. So I tried to educate myself on that score.

I found the torque power curves for the stock 3V 5.4L

View attachment 159448

and for the much prized 1998.5 24V Cummins 5.9L turbo diesel (stock). Cummins, of course, is by far the preferred diesel engine for 3/4 and 1T PUs and the 24V enjoys an impressive reputation.

View attachment 159449

Diesels are touted for their low end torque (the grunt in towing), so I looked that these two engines at 2000 rpm. Interestingly, the hp and torque numbers are nearly the same

130 hp and 350 lb-ft for the Ford 5.4L
and
130 hp and 360 lb-ft for the Cummins 5.9L

Remember, that the Triton is a normally-aspirated, fuel injected engine while the Cummins uses a turbo to get its numbers.

Sure, the Cummins gets better fuel mileage and you can tune that engine to nearly double the hp and torque. And the resale value is better for the diesel, yadda, yadda, yadda.

But I'm only interested in doing a pretty simple towing job and can't justify the extra $5-6K for the Cummins and I'm not interested in performance enhancements. Stock engines will do my job fine.

Moral of this story: you need to do some legwork to get to the bottom of things.

I hate to tell you,but those numbers on paper mean NOTHING.They do not translate to the real world.Diesel fuel burns slowly,when the fuel ignites,its initial bang isnt all that big,but it is pushing on the piston the whole way down the bore,unlike the quick "bang" of power pulses from a gas engine,quick,and its over.......this is where the torque of a diesel comes from....a cummins has almost 400ft lbs of torque at idle....the power ratings are low,it is underated.The 5.4 is a fine engine,but in no way does it even come close to having the towing capability or effortless pulling power of a cummins 24V....Im sure a 5.4 will work for you just fine,but please dont ever,ever think you've got the equal to a 24V cummins because a power curve on paper says so....

 

[Diamondpilot]

The 5.4 Ford seems to take a beating on this forum. I bought an 09 F150 with 5.4, factory brake controller, and towing package. It tows my 6000 lb load well once or twice a month 35 miles one way. No I would not want to tow the 10,000 lb its rated to tow daily. My point is not everyone needs to tow huge loads everyday and that 1/2 ton trucks are able to do the job they were build for.

Totally different game in a 1/2 ton truck. I have owned 6 5.4L F-150's and was happy with all them. Its just the wrong engine for a 3/4 ton and above the same way the 6.0 GM is and the 5.7 Dodge is.

Chris

 

[dodge man]

I stopped at our local Dodge dealer and looked at two 3/4 ton Cummings diesels sitting on the lot. 50k each They aren't exactly giving them away, even if you figure a big discount. If I paid that much for a truck, I would expect a lot out of it, it should almost have a bed and a full bath for that kind of money.

 

[some zilch]

i used to pound the living daylights out of a 2wd f250 w/the 5.4l and a 5 spd. i towed big wood chippers with it, big generators, big air compressors, and it did it fantastically. i dont have 1 bad thing to say about that engine, or the truck itself. if i had to buy a ford, i would buy a gasser over the powerstroke, just for reliability reasons. on the other hand, i would not compare the 5.4l to the 12valve cummins in my dodge. the 5.4 may be quicker and quieter, but it wont pull as dependably or comfortably as the 12valve will.

i have talked to alot of people, and they seem to gravitate towards these pickups because they have the engine power to tow loads that used to be towed by medium duty trucks, and they claim it gets them around the whole CDL/DOT number thing (i'm not trying to start a CDL/DOT number debate--just saying).

 

[deerefan]

What saddens me is it seems the stick shift is becoming obsolete. I thank my father for making me learn to drive a stick for my first vehicle. Made me a better driver.

 

[bearmtnmartin]

Isn't it funny how diesels took over every application where reliability and economy was important over the last half century, and now people feel they need to go to a gas pot for those same requirements. I think that v8 diesels in pickups have really changed peoples perceptions, and its a shame.

 

[Verticaltrx]

Nice memories to have.

Disclaimer: the following may be politically incorrect.

We, as a society,were less spoiled. Your "rights" were dictated by which side of the paddle got used on your backside My parents grew up through the depression era. Later, Dad had to support his mom, brother, sister, wife and two kids. Nobody was handing out things, you earned what you got.
Big rig drivers were big guys because the truck had to be well, man-handled. It takes arm and leg strength to clutch and steer without power aids. I'm betting your dad and granddad were reasonably healthy in those respected areas too. There were reasons why mom and grandma didn't drive. It wasn't necessarily a "fun thing" to do. It was work, but not as much work as the rest of the day usually involved.
Nowadays, things are made so that anyone (of legal age) can get behind the wheel and drive. Power steering, power brakes, ABS , hydraulic clutches and automatic transmissions were all pointed at getting the most numbers of people behind the wheel as possible. Navigation was by a road map you got from the filling station guy. Satellite radio, HAHA. AM radio on a good day and you didn't have a whole lot of choice for what was on either.

Oh, and things were built to last by people who prided themselves in giving a days work for their wages.

I'm just wondering if it has anything to do with the ease of driving the newer trucks? I know I was raised to listen and feel the machine, it'd tell you if something wasn't right. I get scared when I see some of these corporate trucking companys handing out CDLs like they're candy. We also had a LOT more farm kids that were taught to understand/respect machinery. Now we have texting and loud radios. Beside that vehicle manufacturers state these machines will allmost drive themselves.

No responsibility, no experience and no respect = CRASH

I'm probably younger than most of the people in this discussion at 25, but I agree with the two above posts completely. I've been on a farm all my life and also have my own agricultural construction company, so I've operated a wide variety of equipment and vehicles. It really bothers me how new equipment and vehicles 'think for themselves' now and require less and less driver input.

It used to be that if you didn't know how a machine worked, how to work on it, and how to properly operate it you didn't operate it. Even at my age I grew up using a lot of equipment like this and it has made me a much better operator and mechanic.

I really enjoy running old trucks and machinery even though it may not be as easy or nice to run as the new stuff. Trucks with 2-speed rear axles, no power steering, mechanical clutches, PTO driven hoists, non-synchro trannies, manual locking hubs and T-cases are those which I use most heavily (excluding my daily driver, which does have manual hubs, t-case, transmission however.) Same can be said for tractors, while I really like my Kubota for most jobs, my old Ford tractor does everything I need it to and for quite a few things is really better than my Kubota. A tractor with manual steering, manual brakes, non-synchro tranny, and no live PTO are things that most people would think of as drudgery, but when you know how to operate them and keep things adjusted it works great.

The more things 'advance' in these new vehicles makes me want them less and less. Furthermore, the more these new vehicles advance, the more drivers digress IMO.

 

[JESSE1]

Nice memories to have.

Disclaimer: the following may be politically incorrect.

We, as a society,were less spoiled. Your "rights" were dictated by which side of the paddle got used on your backside My parents grew up through the depression era. Later, Dad had to support his mom, brother, sister, wife and two kids. Nobody was handing out things, you earned what you got.
Big rig drivers were big guys because the truck had to be well, man-handled. It takes arm and leg strength to clutch and steer without power aids. I'm betting your dad and granddad were reasonably healthy in those respected areas too. There were reasons why mom and grandma didn't drive. It wasn't necessarily a "fun thing" to do. It was work, but not as much work as the rest of the day usually involved.
Nowadays, things are made so that anyone (of legal age) can get behind the wheel and drive. Power steering, power brakes, ABS , hydraulic clutches and automatic transmissions were all pointed at getting the most numbers of people behind the wheel as possible. Navigation was by a road map you got from the filling station guy. Satellite radio, HAHA. AM radio on a good day and you didn't have a whole lot of choice for what was on either.

Oh, and things were built to last by people who prided themselves in giving a days work for their wages.

No power steering here! That's why they had 22" steering wheels. They actually are pretty easy to drive and steer as long as they are moving.

 

[jayste]

No power steering here! That's why they had 22" steering wheels. They actually are pretty easy to drive and steer as long as they are moving.

You've got that right! I had a '71 Ford "Sports Custom" that had no power steering and as long as you were moving it steered ok. Not to mention all of those other vehicles that didn't belong to me that I drove growing up.

 

[MikePA]

All the nostalgia in this thread is interesting. However, when it comes to today's commercial equipment, from a truck to a bulldozer, operators are paid to know how to operate the equipment as efficiently as possible, not know how to or fix it. If they aren't in the seat, they or their employer are losing money. If AC and GPSs make them less tired and more efficient when plowing the back 400, then they can do more in the same amount of time.

 

[20 20]

All the nostalgia in this thread is interesting. However, when it comes to today's commercial equipment, from a truck to a bulldozer, operators are paid to know how to operate the equipment as efficiently as possible, not know how to or fix it. If they aren't in the seat, they or their employer are losing money. If AC and GPSs make them less tired and more efficient when plowing the back 400, then they can do more in the same amount of time.

Even with that said, the new stuff can and will still break down. I'd much rather have an operator with some mechanical skill, then Fezz the book worm. There is nothing wrong with being an operator that doesn't mind getting the hands dirty. If it were my equipment broke down {with operator} I'd rather know that the operator "atleast" had some mechanical knowledge and tried his/her luck at a fix, especailly if it were something simple. Nothing like paying a mechanic, operator, and having a machine sit that could have been fixed in 5min with the proper knowledge. Plus if an operator has some knowledge of how things run/work they'll also know what to watch for and IMO be a better operator.

You are correct though it is a new world with a bunch of whiners. "I'm not payed to do that!" "I wasn't hired for this!" This machine is junk, it blew a tire!"

 

[20 20]

I'm probably younger than most of the people in this discussion at 25, but I agree with the two above posts completely. I've been on a farm all my life and also have my own agricultural construction company, so I've operated a wide variety of equipment and vehicles. It really bothers me how new equipment and vehicles 'think for themselves' now and require less and less driver input.

It used to be that if you didn't know how a machine worked, how to work on it, and how to properly operate it you didn't operate it. Even at my age I grew up using a lot of equipment like this and it has made me a much better operator and mechanic.

I really enjoy running old trucks and machinery even though it may not be as easy or nice to run as the new stuff. Trucks with 2-speed rear axles, no power steering, mechanical clutches, PTO driven hoists, non-synchro trannies, manual locking hubs and T-cases are those which I use most heavily (excluding my daily driver, which does have manual hubs, t-case, transmission however.) Same can be said for tractors, while I really like my Kubota for most jobs, my old Ford tractor does everything I need it to and for quite a few things is really better than my Kubota. A tractor with manual steering, manual brakes, non-synchro tranny, and no live PTO are things that most people would think of as drudgery, but when you know how to operate them and keep things adjusted it works great.

The more things 'advance' in these new vehicles makes me want them less and less. Furthermore, the more these new vehicles advance, the more drivers digress IMO.

Sounds like you should be proud of what you do and know :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

 

[MikePA]

You are correct though it is a new world with a bunch of whiners. "I'm not payed to do that!" "I wasn't hired for this!" This machine is junk, it blew a tire!"

Um, that's not what I said, at least that's not what I meant. Perhaps an example...

If a backhoe operator is digging a trench it means he is bringing in revenue for the company he works for or himself. The more trenches he can did in a day, the more the revenue. Any feature of the backhoe that helps him dig more trenches in the same amount of time means more revenue. If he is fixing a backhoe, he's not bringing in revenue. If he's not trained to fix the backhoe and takes 4 hours to fix it versus a trained mechanic who can do it in an hour, he's losing even more revenue.

Years ago, old timers probably thought a canopy was for girly men. A cab? For sissies. A cab with AC and a radio? What is the world coming to? A cab, AC, radio and GPS? Why, my granpappy could line up the dent in the hood with the old oak tree and plow a pretty straight line. If it makes the operator more efficient, that's more production, and more revenue.

 

[Egon]

The more things 'advance' in these new vehicles makes me want them less and less. Furthermore, the more these new vehicles advance, the more drivers digress IMO.

Hmmm!

Back to the before machine times eh!:laughing:

Gonna go of the Grid to just keep things in line?:thumbsup:

 

[Diamondpilot]

If we are talking equipment here now days you must do more work with less man power. It used to take 50% of the population to grow our food. Now its more like 1%. Everything has become more specific and specialized and its a cut throat business world no matter if you are driving a truck, dozer, or 747.

Chris

 

[westcliffe01]

Where is the king of obsolete ? I guess at least he owns all of his stuff outright without needing a full time job just to keep paying the note...

My 2005 Dodge ram 1500 (3.7 V6) certainly is a dog if you expect it to move more than itself down the highway. Dodge put a 6 speed manual transmission on that truck and then saddled it with a 3.55 rear end ? I have a HiLo travel trailer that weighs about 5000lb. I have had a few experiences trying to get started at traffic lights on hills and one memorable situation at the campground at Mesa Verdi (10 000 ft elev) where I just about set the clutch on fire trying to back the trailer into my site.

After a lot of research and weighing options, I finally decided that this summer I will have the rear axle ratio changed to the highest available (4.54:1) and have an Auburn LSD carrier installed at the same time to try to improve the traction in adverse conditions.

Good points with this truck are interior layout/design, comfortable seats, relatively quiet (except the exhaust which is too loud), fairly decent mileage except in heavy towing (10mpg on a ~20 gal tank !). The brakes are good (disks on 4 wheels). Have never had anything go wrong so far.

Bad points: Gutless engine in any gear, sloppy handling / stability loaded or unloaded. Very unstable when towing a bumper pull trailer (high susceptibility to wind gusts, camber changes, all of which require extreme concentration. I use a reese cam style weight distributing and anti sway hitch, but even so this truck is still scary enough that my wife will never drive it while towing. For those who don't know the HiLow, it is a camper that is built like a shoe box. The top slides over the bottom (hydraulic) so in the lowered position is is not higher than the pickup cab roof. So it has a low center of gravity and reduced wind loading.

The only reason why I don't yet have a different truck is the fact that we typically only tow the trailer a few times per year. Once a year is often a 5000 mile trip though. We get 16mpg with the HiLo and have no problem running 70mph, where with a full size trailer we could hardly make 60mph with the gas pedal on the floor. I would like to get the stability issue sorted out and I think the new rear axle ratio will be a transformation. With the present gearing the engine is running 2000rpm at 70mph... Don't know what those Chrysler boys were thinking...

 

[DIRTROAD]

I have often said that to get the equivalent of a 3/4 ton truck of yesteryear, you must buy a 1 ton on todays market. Just talking payload, not engines.

Equipment on todays market blows the equipment of yesteryear away.

 

[buck12]

What saddens me is it seems the stick shift is becoming obsolete. I thank my father for making me learn to drive a stick for my first vehicle. Made me a better driver.

I remember learning to drive Dad's old Ford with a three on the tree. Now you can't even get a stick in a new Ford 1/2 ton.

 

[TheGoose]

Old Car vs. New Car.

YouTube - Crash Test 1959 Chevrolet Bel Air VS. 2009 Chevrolet Malibu (Frontal Offset) IIHS 50th Anniversary

Guess that metal vs. plastic argument just went out the windows!!

 

[TheGoose]

Gonna have to disagree with this one. Gas engines are the ones who do not sit very well. Diesel will stay good for a long time. I only crank one of my tractors 2-3 times per year and I have no problem starting it right up after warming up the glow plugs. If I let anything with gas sit 6+ months not only will the gas go bad but the water mixed with the ethanol will eat the metal in the carbs and make a heck of a mess.

Thirdly, a diesel for towing 4500lbs a few thousand miles a year is not the best option. Diesels do not sit very well and need to be run more often then gas engines plus the maintenance and higher initial cost vs low yearly mileage would never make it worth it. You can tow 4500lbs with a mid-sized truck these days let alone a full-size with a V8. A Ford Ranger 2wd long box V6 can tow 5940lbs and a Dodge Dakota can tow up to 7200lbs.