Ford 1500/1700 injector pump

[Texas Blues]

Thanks JC, thats probably it. I guess one day I will have to get in there and check that. Got to keep it up and running for now while I finish putting together my Massey 135. Once the massey is running I will be able to mow with it. If you are interested, I have been posting pictures of the 135 stuff in the red section. Going outside now and putting the oil pickup tube on and then the pan. Thanks again! TB

 

[sikboater]

Hey all, I also have a Ford 1500 and there are no drain or level holes. The manual evens says they are suppose to be there but mine looks just like the original posters.....

Last time I changed my crankcase oil, I just fill the injector pump up to the top. I don't know how it was done before I got it as that was the first time I had filled it. This was last fall and I have had no problems in the last 50 hours of run time...

I have not been able to find any documents or advice on why this is.... My model is a 1981 4wd....


Anyway I am very interested if any information on this comes up!


Tim

 

[JC-jetro]

I checked it out a bit and I know one of the guys here "Jones 6780" was overhauling his 1700 and he was using an spare tractor for part. On of his 1700 had drain and fill plug and the other one did not. His last post he made he said that he was going to open the back side the injector pump to see if he can drill and tap. Have not heard from him yet .

Hey Russell, if you're there chime in. Did you get it figured out. I know there is a governor with a "centrifugal advance weight" to regulate flow. I can't see that the weight is submersed in oil as the oil amount is so low and can fill the cavity ,and also can't see the weight to work well while sloshing around i oil. I would like to open one of those pump for looksy inside. As they say " don't try to fix it if it ain't broken". I hate to booger mine up just to check.

JC,


P.s. Too much oil is almost as bad as not having enough oil. Hot oil will expand and seals can have issues.

 

[jones6780]

O.K. Here it is. The first shot is the pump without fill level and drain holes. The second is the back cover removed. There is a spring attached to the cover that keeps pressure on the throttle levers, didn't fall off. The third shot is looking into the back of the pump at the fly weights for the govenor. The last shot is into a mirror to try and get better angles. The oil that came out was not much, very thin and smelled of diesel.
From what I saw I would not hesitate to drill and tap the holes. I would park the tractor so it is pointed up hill, remove the back cover, rotate the engine for maximum clearance. Then drill and tap. I would then flush the cavity with diesel to wash out all the metal shavings. Another trick would be to coat the drill and tap with grease so all the shavings will stick to the drill/tap. After a thorough cleaning re-assemble and fill. The gasket came apart in removal so I will just buy the material from the auto parts house and make a new gasket.

Russell

 

[JC-jetro]

O.K. Here it is. The first shot is the pump without fill level and drain holes. The second is the back cover removed. There is a spring attached to the cover that keeps pressure on the throttle levers, didn't fall off. The third shot is looking into the back of the pump at the fly weights for the govenor. The last shot is into a mirror to try and get better angles. The oil that came out was not much, very thin and smelled of diesel.
From what I saw I would not hesitate to drill and tap the holes. I would park the tractor so it is pointed up hill, remove the back cover, rotate the engine for maximum clearance. Then drill and tap. I would then flush the cavity with diesel to wash out all the metal shavings. Another trick would be to coat the drill and tap with grease so all the shavings will stick to the drill/tap. After a thorough cleaning re-assemble and fill. The gasket came apart in removal so I will just buy the material from the auto parts house and make a new gasket.

Russell

Way to go Russell. I knew you were thinking about it. I just can't figure why the heck they did not drill and tap some of them. I wondered if there were quality control issues, but what the heck...we're talking Japanese Thanks for sharing the pictures. I bet you have not found any evidence of overflow back to the crankcase, have you?
Another question, the amount of oil in there is just a few oz. Do you see any issue if a guy just opens the back plate some to drain oil and then fill from the top a measured amount of oil. That sure beats drill and tap if you have to do an oil change every 300 hrs. I know on mine I did it for the first time at 900 hrs.

By the way how did your overhaul go after initial engine burn in?

JC,


ps. was the flyweight immersed in oil? did the oil come out as soon as you took the cover plate in the back off?

 

[jones6780]

JC, the engine runs just fine. Still haven't put more than 10 hours on it.

As for the injector pump, the oil is contained and no connection at all to the engine. For my own self I will invest the time to drill and tap the holes. It is much easier that removing the back cover and replacing the gasket every time. From what I saw the oils purpose is to lubricate the governor linkage and flyweights. The flyweights touch the oil but just barely. Kinda like an oil slinger on a small lawn mower engine, as the weights turn they sling oil up on the walls.
Russell

 

[JC-jetro]

JC, the engine runs just fine. Still haven't put more than 10 hours on it.

As for the injector pump, the oil is contained and no connection at all to the engine. For my own self I will invest the time to drill and tap the holes. It is much easier that removing the back cover and replacing the gasket every time. From what I saw the oils purpose is to lubricate the governor linkage and flyweights. The flyweights touch the oil but just barely. Kinda like an oil slinger on a small lawn mower engine, as the weights turn they sling oil up on the walls.
Russell

Russell,

I suppose a guy could tap only a drain hole either on the pump body or a hole and a plug in the back plate. A bit of compressed air from the top and you eject all the oil out. You can fill up from top putting couple of OZ of oil. Were you able to see the cam that causes reciprocating action of the plunger/pump?

JC,

 

[Texas Blues]

Great job with the pics jones! I guess a guy could just drill and tap a drain hole, and then just add the oil from the vent at the top? That would limit the amount of possible leak spots. I can imagine that centrifigul weight slings oil pretty good when running, and a couple ounces of oil is probably constantly being slung and doesnt spend much time pooling in the bottom of the pump housing. Thanks TB

 

[Texas Blues]

Oops, JC just mentioned that, lol

 

[old1500]

Let me "fire" this subject up again. My 1980 1500 pump DOES NOT have the drain/fill-level screws in the pump housing either. I only want to have to tackle this one time and be done with it. I do plan to remove the cover when I drill-n-tap and then clean it all out real good....BUT....my question is, what size bit and tap did anybody use?

A 1/4 x 20 looks about right as far as diameter goes, but I don't know how much of a boss I have for the course threaded bolt to grab and am thinking a fine thread should be used, or maybe even a 1/16th. pipe plug. I forget what the threads are on the plug that is a step below the 1/8 NPT plug, but I have a few of those that came out of Harley EFI lines I have accumulated over the years. The plug is used in a fuel pressure port for testing on the fuel injected models. A plumber friend of mine told me there was no such thing as a 1/16th. pipe plug when I went in to purchase a tap....but I have a few that I call a 1/16th. because they are a step below a 1/8th. and look like they will fit these bosses on the pump just fine.

In any event....what did somebody that has actually made this modification use?

 

[barbqranch]

McMaster Carr shows 1/16 pipe plugs and taps.

 

[rayikeo2]

Is this really a good idea? Is there a chance of ruining the pump? Is it necessary to drill into a closed system? Doesn't this pump have some other means of lubrication? I sure would get the answers before attempting to drill into a $600+ pump.:confused2:

 

[JC-jetro]

Let me "fire" this subject up again. My 1980 1500 pump DOES NOT have the drain/fill-level screws in the pump housing either. I only want to have to tackle this one time and be done with it. I do plan to remove the cover when I drill-n-tap and then clean it all out real good....BUT....my question is, what size bit and tap did anybody use?

A 1/4 x 20 looks about right as far as diameter goes, but I don't know how much of a boss I have for the course threaded bolt to grab and am thinking a fine thread should be used, or maybe even a 1/16th. pipe plug. I forget what the threads are on the plug that is a step below the 1/8 NPT plug, but I have a few of those that came out of Harley EFI lines I have accumulated over the years. The plug is used in a fuel pressure port for testing on the fuel injected models. A plumber friend of mine told me there was no such thing as a 1/16th. pipe plug when I went in to purchase a tap....but I have a few that I call a 1/16th. because they are a step below a 1/8th. and look like they will fit these bosses on the pump just fine.

In any event....what did somebody that has actually made this modification use?

I have some notes to self on my paper manual about amount of oil in the injector pump. I'm out of town and can't exactly remember the amount but it is very little ... I think less than 2 OZ. If you use dedicated baby food glass jar and mark the 2oz then you can fill it to the right amount without having to bore the level hole on the pump. If you loosen the back plate just a crack, then you can push the oil out using a bit of compressed air on the fill hole. I have quick connect nozzle attachments for my air compressor and couple of other air bottles. I use the conical shape nozzle and push a bit of air on top and all the oil promptly comes out. You can just put in the pre measured amount in.

JC,

P.s . Buy a funnel combo from HF for $.99 (orange color) and it has several size funnels, the littlest one is just about perfect to put in the injector pump inlet and dump in the oil in.

 

[JC-jetro]

Is this really a good idea? Is there a chance of ruining the pump? Is it necessary to drill into a closed system? Doesn't this pump have some other means of lubrication? I sure would get the answers before attempting to drill into a $600+ pump.:confused2:

Ray,

The lubrication of this pump is stand alone and not connected to crankcase oil as some other model. It is essential to replace this oil every 300 hrs. I know I was the only one who changed it amongst two other previous owners. @ 900 hrs and 30 years, it looked dirty but not too bad as there is no product of combustion missing with the oil like crankcase. what I suggested in previous post is not a bad idea. I would have done it myself if I did not have the drain and level holes tapped.

JC,

 

[rayikeo2]

JC, I am sitting here thinking about different ways the oil could be changed in a pump with only a fill plug and came up with this off the wall idea. Go to a farm or pet store and buy a large plastic syringe, attach to this a 6" piece of small clear plastic tube where the needle attaches. Push all the air out, insert it into the pump and pull up on the plunger till it fills the syringe. Empty it out put in the same amount of new oil re-insert the tube and push it into the pump. What do you think, will it work?

 

[rayikeo2]

Ray,

The lubrication of this pump is stand alone and not connected to crankcase oil as some other model. It is essential to replace this oil every 300 hrs. I know I was the only one who changed it amongst two other previous owners. @ 900 hrs and 30 years, it looked dirty but not too bad as there is no product of combustion missing with the oil like crankcase. what I suggested in previous post is not a bad idea. I would have done it myself if I did not have the drain and level holes tapped.

JC,

JC, I am sitting here thinking about different ways the oil could be changed in a pump with only a fill plug and came up with this off the wall idea. Go to a farm or pet store and buy a large plastic syringe, attach to this a 6" piece of small clear plastic tube where the needle attaches. Push all the air out, insert it into the pump and pull up on the plunger till it fills the syringe. Empty it out put in the same amount of new oil re-insert the tube and push it into the pump. What do you think, will it work?

 

[JC-jetro]

JC, I am sitting here thinking about different ways the oil could be changed in a pump with only a fill plug and came up with this of the wall idea. Go to a farm or pet store and buy a large plastic syringe, attach to this a 6" piece of small clear plastic tube where the needle attaches. Push all the air out, insert it into the pump and pull up on the plunger till it fills the syringe. Empty it out put in the same amount of new oil re-insert the tube and push it into the pump. What do you think, will it work?

I thinkit is harder to suck the oil thru small dia hose if the oil is really dirty, cold and I'm not sure if you can get the tube all the way to the bottom of reservoir to suck it all up. I kind of suggested the opposite, as to put compressed air from the top and have the back plate slightly ajar. That will for sure expel the completely and quickly. I have done it the same, I opened the drain and instead of gravity flow pushed in air from the top and in 2 seconds all the oil was expelled.

JC,

 

[old1500]

I lean toward everybody's concern about poking a hole into the pump and I really do think it's a bad idea to do it without removing the cover to make sure everything is out of the way. If I do...I planned to only drill the drain hole, but would open it up first. I am leaning to JC's idea of just "cracking" the cover and draining the oil. I am just not sure of how much to put back in.

Maybe I will just measure what comes out and replace that with a little extra for any loss through weeping or vaporization over the years. My gosh....this thing is 30-years old and likely never had that oil changed since it was born in the first place. As I consider this....once in my remaining lifetime is probably enough since it has lasted 30-years like it is!

 

[rayikeo2]

Old1500 maybe yours works like the 1710 models describbed below.

From the FO-44 shop manual: The injection pump on 1700, 1710 models uses the same oil as used in the engine. Recommend 200 hour changes. On 1710 models the injection pump utilizes oil from the engine crankcase for lubrication. When changing engine oil (every 100 hours of opperation) add approcimately 150 mL or (5 oz) through pump filler opening. For 1910 & 2110 models add 235 mL (8 oz).

Maybe, (I don't know) this could apply to those pumps without filler and drain holes. I sure would find out before drilling holes in a good working pump!
I am a beliver in the rule: If it aint broke don't fix it.
My interpertation of these instructions is that the injecter pump oil in those pumps with out holes is lubricated by engine oil and every time the engine oil is drained the pump also drains therefore the instructon to add oil in the pump filler tube each time you change engine oil is to insure that the pump is not running dry for the length of time it takes to recirculate engine oil into the pump. This opinion needs to be verified before drilling holes.

 

[sld]

The fuel pump on my 1210 bolts to the front of the block and is driven by the first three lobes of the cam shaft. It appears to use engine oil for this.

Are the "00 series gear driven external to the engine?