Grid-tied solar

[KiwiBro]

No net 10Kw metering according to Hydro One on the 4800V three phase line running past my place to the 2.1MW transformer station 2-1/2 miles away. As it will overload the system.
I can however update my utity service to three phase , 600V and 200amp , 207 KW no problem.
I smell a rat.
The utility courtesy of the rate payer spent over 1 billion last year to subsidize electrical rates for green power . Then turn around and have to pay New York and Michigan to take surplus power on nights and weekends.

I hear you.
We had to pay for a new, larger transformer before they would connect our house. Not because the existing one wasn't adequate but connecting would have eaten into their fairy dust 'reserve capacity'.
They may as well try and grab everything they can because as far as I am concerned they are not getting another cent out of me in the future. Even if that means delaying the next build until we can afford to go completely off grid. I just hope we can earn/save enough between now and then or at least before the over-leveraged ponzi world economies disintegrate.

 

[buickanddeere]

If there was natural gas to my property.the power bill would look different .
A while back looking at a power bill. We used 79% of our power at the lowest rate during evenings and weekends. Average price per Kw hr was 17 cents.
Before Ontario Hydro was looted in the mid to late 90's . Power was 5-6 cents iirc. Competition was supposed to be cheaper than power at cost.
Now the green weenies have made the power distribution system even worse. Gerrald Butts who was president of the Canadian branch of the World Wild Life Fund/Foundation. He slid through the green energy act in Ontario while he was secretary to the Ontario Liberal Party.
In effect it will shut down nuclear as was his end game . By cutting nuclear revenue too low to maintain the units. By pushing the wholesale price of power on nights and week ends to zero with surplus green power. Clever SOB. Too bad those smarts were not used for something constructive.

 

[RalphVa]

We're participating now in the Solarize Cville project by a local proponent called LEAP (local energy alliance, etc). The vendor they selected for us came in with a cost of $9,858 for a 3.18 kw system of 12 solar Q cells. They estimate that our starting savings will be $54/mo. There's about a 9 year payout, taking into account the 30% federal rebate.

This is in central Virginia. We're just west of Charlottesville. The location is on a SSW roof of our carriage house (where my tractor stuff is parked inside).

Looks pretty attractive. Price of the actual panels is ridiculously low now, about $600.

This is a turn key project.

Ralph

 

[deezler]

We're participating now in the Solarize Cville project by a local proponent called LEAP (local energy alliance, etc). The vendor they selected for us came in with a cost of $9,858 for a 3.18 kw system of 12 solar Q cells. They estimate that our starting savings will be $54/mo. There's about a 9 year payout, taking into account the 30% federal rebate.

This is in central Virginia. We're just west of Charlottesville. The location is on a SSW roof of our carriage house (where my tractor stuff is parked inside).

Looks pretty attractive. Price of the actual panels is ridiculously low now, about $600.

This is a turn key project.

Ralph

Badass. If you can afford that now, how can or why would you say no? I can't wait until I clear my debt to do the same.

 

[RalphVa]

Our power company, Dominion, doesn't pay for excess power but banks it. You don't want to generate so much that you cannot use it up during low solar generation months.

Might be a time to get a few more panels, since they're so cheap relative to the rest of the job. Just have to not bank too much. Our overall usage averages between 2 and 3 kwh. Full generation on the 3.18 kw array would put us into excess in full sun.

Ralph

 

[buickanddeere]

Our power company, Dominion, doesn't pay for excess power but banks it. You don't want to generate so much that you cannot use it up during low solar generation months.

Might be a time to get a few more panels, since they're so cheap relative to the rest of the job. Just have to not bank too much. Our overall usage averages between 2 and 3 kwh. Full generation on the 3.18 kw array would put us into excess in full sun.

Ralph

You must have LP appliances and more sun than we do. It would take 15kw of panels to net my house and shed to zero.

 

[ultrarunner]

Several of my solar friends have more power than predicted that they put in electric hot water and one bought a Leaf and still has power left at the end of the year...

I need a 3kW system... use 360 kWh each month year round... those CREE LED bulbs made a big difference.

 

[RalphVa]

No propane or natural gas. We're all electric. Usage near 30,000 kwh/yr.

We live like Europeans: thermostat up in summer and down in winter.

Ralph

 

[dave1949]

No propane or natural gas. We're all electric. Usage near 30,000 kwh/yr.

We live like Europeans: thermostat up in summer and down in winter.

Ralph

According to the PVWatts calculator (using Lynchburg,VA weather data) you would need a 20 DC kW system to produce 29,250 AC kWh per year. At 300 DC watts per panel that would require 67 panels. That is using 180 degree due south orientation at a tilt angle of 37 degrees (your latitude).

You can try out the generation and $ value calculations here:
PVWatts Calculator

If your weather is significantly different from Lynchburg's, you can change the location too.

 

[buickanddeere]

No propane or natural gas. We're all electric. Usage near 30,000 kwh/yr.

We live like Europeans: thermostat up in summer and down in winter.

Ralph

Three teenagers that drain a 60 gallon electric water heater at least once daily. Electric stove, two fridges , freezer, electric clothes dryer used in winter or while raining, electric heat in garage , water pipe heat trace, block beaters for vehicles and tractors . Eight yard lights , well pump, every light left on unless we shut them off . Three TV's etc. electric forced air heating backup when the wood stove burns low.1HP pool pump. Hot tub when we finish the new deck.

 

[dave1949]

Results for July 3-31, 2015.

About in line with previous July's considering July 1-2 are in June's reading.

*********************************** Model Prediction ***********************************************
OLD
_______388____412____509_____374____353____308____ 341___383____394____369____283____331____4,447

NEW Waterville, ME
_______273____322____491_____449____417____375____ 438___542____443____408____350____319____4,827

NEW Portland, ME
_______453____486____523_____452____448____409____ 444___464____466____461____351____368____5,325


GENERATION
Year___Jan____Feb____Mar____Apr_____May____Jun____ Jul____Aug____Sep____Oct____Nov____Dec____Total

2012____NA____NA_____NA____NA_____NA_____NA_____NA ___461_____481____378____400____297____NA
2013____440___375____462____487_____375____379____ 377___470_____476____453____414____278____4,986
2014____360___446____577____525_____361____390____ 395___453_____489____380____295____299____4,970
2015____431___456____612____473_____440____407____361


Values are AC kilowatt hours.
Model source: NREL PVWatts Calculator

 

[dave1949]

Energy Storage and Actual Reality | The Energy Collective

Interesting perspective on where and how batteries fit into the scheme of things in California which has mandated a move toward utility grid storage.

 

[3930dave]

Energy Storage and Actual Reality | The Energy Collective

Interesting perspective on where and how batteries fit into the scheme of things in California which has mandated a move toward utility grid storage.

Cali often leads in these areas..... will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Follow the money is good advice...... consumers like grid-tie since sophisticated inverters are maintenance free, and much cheaper to buy than batteries. Some utilities may be interested in distributed power, but they want consumers to pay for the batteries..... always comes back to who pays.

I'd like to see advances in these areas deployed, but one thing that will have to change is utility culture/mindset. As was pointed out in the article, most utilities aren't oriented towards managing small assets at that level.

The people I've talked to here weren't happy with early attempts at network controlled load-shedding. Hopefully that is performing better today.

Rgds, D.

 

[houstonscott]

Cali often leads in these areas..... will be interesting to see how this plays out. Follow the money is good advice...... consumers like grid-tie since sophisticated inverters are maintenance free, and much cheaper to buy than batteries. Some utilities may be interested in distributed power, but they want consumers to pay for the batteries..... always comes back to who pays. I'd like to see advances in these areas deployed, but one thing that will have to change is utility culture/mindset. As was pointed out in the article, most utilities aren't oriented towards managing small assets at that level. The people I've talked to here weren't happy with early attempts at network controlled load-shedding. Hopefully that is performing better today. Rgds, D.

California is broke and doesn't lead in anyway, or anything, anymore. It's seen as one big mistake now... What not to do... The butt of jokes now... Been almost two decades since bust... The folks who built Santa Clara county and its industry are long gone, retired, or dead. What's left are the artifacts of what was... HS

 

[dave1949]

Cali often leads in these areas..... will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Follow the money is good advice...... consumers like grid-tie since sophisticated inverters are maintenance free, and much cheaper to buy than batteries. Some utilities may be interested in distributed power, but they want consumers to pay for the batteries..... always comes back to who pays.

I'd like to see advances in these areas deployed, but one thing that will have to change is utility culture/mindset. As was pointed out in the article, most utilities aren't oriented towards managing small assets at that level.

The people I've talked to here weren't happy with early attempts at network controlled load-shedding. Hopefully that is performing better today.

Rgds, D.

Yes, it will be interesting to see how the negotiation process of reducing the global carbon budget works out. I don't think I will be around to see that. It is going to be a complex blend of market forces and policy mandates with a fair amount of public will applied it seems. What people are happy with is going to change as the "compared to what alternatives" realization sinks in.

That's not to say that more elegant and acceptable technology is not needed. Perhaps once the public's willingness to address the carbon issue matures, the real debate between expending resources on wind, solar and nuclear will happen. There are folks like Hansen who say nuclear is an imperative in any scenario where carbon is greatly reduced.

We didn't build the interstate highway system before we had the vehicles that needed it, and once built it acted as a use multiplier. I see similarities in low carbon energy development but we are definitely still in the early days stage.

 

[Got2BTru]

According to the PVWatts calculator (using Lynchburg,VA weather data) you would need a 20 DC kW system to produce 29,250 AC kWh per year. At 300 DC watts per panel that would require 67 panels. That is using 180 degree due south orientation at a tilt angle of 37 degrees (your latitude).

You can try out the generation and $ value calculations here:
PVWatts Calculator

If your weather is significantly different from Lynchburg's, you can change the location too.

Not sure how I use this calculator, but by punching in my ZIP and using most defaults, it shows I would get 4,928 kWh per Year. I use an average of 1.1k per month (12k per year) in my EXISTING 120 year old house. We plan on building next year and I hope to have it considerably lowered. I'd prefer to go OFF GRID though as the local utility (National Grid) wants $25k to run electrical 1300 feet from the road to the house.

 

[Beltman60]

$25k buys a lot of batteries :thumbsup:

 

[Got2BTru]

I don't want to hijack the thread since it's GRID-TIED, but yes it does buy a lot of batteries, but the life span is not that long from what I am reading. That's why I was intrigued by the Tesla Home batteries that guarantee 92%+ for 10 years & the cost is very reasonable. If I'm understanding all of this technology correctly, I use an average (now, in this OLD house) of 1.2kwh per month or 11,000kwh per year (according to my last National Grid bill). That equates to 36.67kwh per day so I'd need 6 of their battery packs which are 7kwh batteries. Just gotta find someone in NY to get more information, costs, etc. Then look at the panels themselves to see who makes a better panel, etc. If I can do it for the same 25k, I'm sold...I think... ;o)

 

[dave1949]

Not sure how I use this calculator, but by punching in my ZIP and using most defaults, it shows I would get 4,928 kWh per Year. I use an average of 1.1k per month (12k per year) in my EXISTING 120 year old house. We plan on building next year and I hope to have it considerably lowered. I'd prefer to go OFF GRID though as the local utility (National Grid) wants $25k to run electrical 1300 feet from the road to the house.

Unfortunately the calculator is a one-way thing, you cannot enter the desired result and have it back figure the DC KW system size needed. I just try several DC sizes to home in on the desired result.

For general planning using the defaults except for Tilt (deg) should be okay. The optimal fixed tilt degree is your latitude. If you plan on roof mounted solar it helps to have a roof pitch that comes close to that +/- 15 degrees.

I assume AC would be a big portion of your electric usage in TX. You can favor afternoon solar power by turning the panels somewhat to the west. An Azimuth of 180 deg. is true south (not magnetic south). Using the calculator you can see how turning the panels would affect your annual output versus getting the most power when you need it the most. The various choices depends on what you are trying to accomplish.

It's going to be hard to nail down a very accurate electric need for a house in the planning stages. Lighting is not hard to estimate and you could use the Energy Star usage rating on some appliances like washer/dryer, dishwasher, frig, etc. Heating and cooling are more difficult. It is generally cheaper to buy better efficiency than more solar equipment--especially if you go off-grid.

A $25K charge to get power is cause for some thinking for sure. Your first goal should be to get a reasonably accurate energy budget for the new house calculated.

 

[Got2BTru]

Thanks...the house we're building next spring is in Central NY (in between Syracuse and Utica). More concerned about HEAT in the winter than A/C in the summer, but they're both drains on the system. We'll either be using SIPs or 6" spray foam insulated walls. My *assumption* at this point is that even if I can get the system installed (off-grid) for $25k and it lasts 10 years, the battery costs should come down during that 10 year span so that when I do have to replace them in 10+ years, it will be less.

$25k spread over 120 months (10 years) is $208 per month, but right now I'm averaging about $150 per month, so it's a bit higher.