How is this not robbery?

[scesnick]

JJ,
I didn't read every post on this but i kinda agree with you. Afterall, what if the mechanic took it way overboard and said it was gonna take him 10 hours to fix your car at $50 and hour. That would be $500. Now what if he completes that task in only 2 hours? You just paid him $250 an hour to do this repair instead of the $50 and hour he deserves for his services.

you darn right that is deception.

 

[Car Doc]

In dream land anything is possible.

 

[Elkins45]

JJ,
I didn't read every post on this but i kinda agree with you. Afterall, what if the mechanic took it way overboard and said it was gonna take him 10 hours to fix your car at $50 and hour. That would be $500. Now what if he completes that task in only 2 hours? You just paid him $250 an hour to do this repair instead of the $50 and hour he deserves for his services.

you darn right that is deception.

What if he took 9 hours and 52 minutes? The lying SOB! He owes you 8 minutes!

Where's the line? All this talk about hours is a red herring. If you agree to pay X and they charge you X then you can't say they didn't tell you how much it was going to cost...and that's how much you agreed to pay.

 

[scesnick]

Well, I am gonna mow this old farmers field next week. I planned on telling him $40.00 and hour and it will take 8 hours which would cost him about $320.00 to have the whole field done.

I always get paid in advance. So, after reading a few posts on this subject here, I think I will tell him it is gonna take 16 hours even though i know darn well it will only take me 8 hours.



( FWIW I have morals and would never do this even though a few here think it is fine)

 

[Arky217]

This thread made me think of a uncle of mine. He had a guy come out to clear some land. He sat and watched him for about a hour and went up and told the cat driver that he wasn't paying for him to back up. You can guess what hit the fan.

Without a doubt, this is the funniest story in this whole thread.:laughing:

There is some validity to both sides of the argument in this thread:

In my younger years, I turned wrenches for about 10 years.
This was back in the days when things were repaired instead of replaced. Started out on a salary of $39 for a 44 hour week. Finally got up to 60% commission on labor and 10% on parts.

I operated like this:

I gave the customer a quote to do the job. The quote would be for everything, diagnosing the problem if necessary, parts, and labor.

If I wasn't real familiar with exactly how long the job would take, I would look up the time in a labor book (don't remember it's name) to give me a general idea. Then I would use that time on which to base the labor part of the quote.

If the customer agreed to the quote, then I did the job and the quote is what the customer paid.

If I allowed 2 hours for labor and I did the job in 1 hour due to the job going smoothly and/or my experience in that particular job, then so much the better for me. The customer paid what he agreed on (the quoted price) and received the same quality work as he would have if the job had taken the 2 hours.

On the other hand, if the job didn't go as smooth and/or my inexperience caused the job to take 4 hours, then the customer still paid what he agreed on (the quoted price) and still received the same quality work as he would have if the job had taken the 2 hours, and I bit the bullet on the extra time.

Seems to me, that was as fair as fair can get.



Now, for my mini rant:

The only occasions that I pay someone to do something for me is when I have no choice. ( I can't operate on myself; I can't fill my own teeth, etc. I have, however, cut my own hair for the last 40+ years. )
It just seems like the integrity of doing things right in nearly every field has gone down the toilet.
Sure, that is a blanket statement, and a lot of people working for the public are proud of their work and rightly so.
However, there are also many out there who are either outright crooks or are pathetically incompetent.

Like the guy that replaces a dozen items in trying to find the problem and charges you for them all, parts and labor, and the problem is still there.

Or how about the 'Economy oil change' where even if they actually change the oil and filter, they leave the drain plug loose and it leads to the destruction of your engine.

So the challenge for the public is how do you tell who is who, especially for those of the public who aren't knowledgeable enough about the work they need done to recognize that they've been shafted even after the fact.

I guess the long and short of it is, that today you have to really educate yourself about what it is you want to pay someone to do or you're just asking to get ripped off.


Well, since I'm ranting, I'll add this little bit about how the quality of the things you buy has changed.

Use to be that if you bought the most expensive, you got excellent quality. In fact, it was hard to buy something that wasn't worth what you paid for it. In other words, 'you get what you pay for' was generally true.

Today, you buy the most expensive and hope that it's not broke before you get it out of the box.
And I'm not talking just about the cheap China stuff. Today, made in the USA does not automatically mean it's a quality item.

Well, I guess I'd better stop before I start ranting about politics and who knows what else.

Stay cool in this heat wave,

 

[Bird]

In dream land anything is possible.

:laughing::laughing:Yep. When I ask about a price, I couldn't care less what the hourly rate is, or how long it'll take to do the job (except to ask for a estimate of when it'll be ready), or how much profit is involved for who. I just want to know how much I've gotta get out of my pocket and whether the job will be done right, and if I think the grand total is acceptable, we've got a deal, period.

When we lived down in Navarro County, it was 12 miles to the nearest tiny town, 20 & 25 miles to towns of any size, but there was an independent mechanic who lived nearly 2 miles from us, had his shop next to his house, had most of the modern equipment, and worked on both cars and pickups and tractors. He worked alone except for his widowed father-in-law (who retired from Ford Motor Co. and was primarily his parts chaser) and sometimes a teenaged grandson. It seemed a bit odd in that he always had vehicles he was working on, but no matter what you took to him, he'd have time to help you and get yours out today or tomorrow. Friendly guy who had no objections to you staying and watching what he was doing, if you wished.

Besides that, I liked to play with his border collie.:laughing: When I got out of my vehicle, that border collie would bring me an old used spark plug wire. And I could throw it until my arm wore out and the rascal would keep bringing it back and never tire of that game.:laughing:

But now I'm back in town where I didn't know any of the independent mechanics. Being a member of AAA, they guarantee repairs done by certain garages, and I'm sure those places are good, but I've called to ask about a couple of jobs and their prices are no better than the Ford dealer no more than a mile from me. I think everyone seems to assume that the dealers are higher priced or less honest, but this one ain't. So I get all my vehicle work done there. I can wait on it and drink their coffee while I wait, or they'll bring me home and come get me when it's ready.

 

[Car Doc]

Good story there Bird! I like having a good personal as well as professional relationship with people I do business with too! :thumbsup:

And I would be happy to help JJ out with his feeling he got gigged if he would tell us what the car was he had the work on maybe he did maybe he didnt i will look it up and/or give my opinion on the job if I know how bad it is etc?

I have no idea I am presuming they went off a published labor rate and added some for the loss of revenue from him bringing his own parts just a guess they probably figured if he got it at the zone he would be bringing it back in a week to put another one on and then charge him again thats how byo parts works. btw.

 

[Petroman1]

With the economy as it is the mechanic is lucky to be employed. Never mind the shop overhead, insurances, taxes worker compensation etc. I guess profit is a dirty word! If they had the new mechanic on it and it took him 5 hours to replace it would the additional cost have been paid? Most likely not...:2cents:

 

[J_J]

Good story there Bird! I like having a good personal as well as professional relationship with people I do business with too! :thumbsup:

And I would be happy to help JJ out with his feeling he got gigged if he would tell us what the car was he had the work on maybe he did maybe he didnt i will look it up and/or give my opinion on the job if I know how bad it is etc?

I have no idea I am presuming they went off a published labor rate and added some for the loss of revenue from him bringing his own parts just a guess they probably figured if he got it at the zone he would be bringing it back in a week to put another one on and then charge him again thats how byo parts works. btw.

92 Ford F-150 wiper moto,r two plug. Thats all.

3 bolts, about 6 screws, raise the cowling, remove the clip on the shaft, replace motor, insert clip, screw the cowling back down, and done.

This post was not meant to rile anybody, but if I ruffled anybody's feathers, I am truly sorry and I hope you have a better day.

I am happy that I got the wipers fixed, but I will never like the price, even though some say that it is general practice.

 

[LD1]

Well, I am gonna mow this old farmers field next week. I planned on telling him $40.00 and hour and it will take 8 hours which would cost him about $320.00 to have the whole field done.

I always get paid in advance. So, after reading a few posts on this subject here, I think I will tell him it is gonna take 16 hours even though i know darn well it will only take me 8 hours.



( FWIW I have morals and would never do this even though a few here think it is fine)

NO. You just simply quote him $320 to do the job at hand. And the end of the job, (if he agrees), collect $320 and everyone is happy. No need to go into how many hours you "think" it is going to take, or how much you charge per hour, or how you come about your $320 figure.

Just simply quote him $320 to bushhog "this" area. If he agrees, who cares if it takes you 4 hours or 24 hours. If you hold up your end of the deal (bushhogging all that is required for the price quoted) he shouldnt have any gripe at all. Even if it only takes 2 hours.

 

[Qapla]

I converted a "fixed-rate" price book for another industry (not the auto business) for use on the computer and they explained to me the reason for such pricing. They also explained the "formula" for coming up with the "hours" figured for the job.

The theory behind the fixed-rate is that people talk. When someone has a job done and the work is done right, they tell others about it. When they don't like something - they tell even more people.

It goes like this:

Actual hours-
One guy gets a job done and the job goes smooth. He is charged for the time and materials for his job. Another person gets "the same job" done and it does not go smooth. It takes twice as long. He is charged for time and materials and it cost him much more then the first guy. Now, since he paid more then his friend did for, as he see it - the same job, he tells all his friends what a rip-off the shop is.

Rate book-
Same scenario as above except that both guys are charged the same price. However, that price is halfway between what the first guy paid and the second guy paid. Since the first guy was satisfied with the job and the price (since he paid what he was quoted and was never quoted the actual time price) as was the second guy, they both give the shop high marks and send their friends to that shop.

The shop made the same money without angering a customer.

As for the formula:

When they are coming up with the flat-rates, they look at best and worst case scenarios. They (the rate book people) weight the prices toward the worst case even though they know that most quality shops will have many more best case repairs.

If a shop is smart, they will not tell someone they are basing the repair on "hours" and shop costs (towels, rags, cleaners, etc.) they will calculate the price that way but give a "repair cost" for the job. When the repair is done, the customer pays the agreed upon price and all are happy.

The problem comes when the service writer tells the customer that the shop is charging 3 hours and the customer knows full well the job only took 1 hour.

The other part of the problem is that the rate book companies over allow time for jobs they know full well will never take as long as they allow. When even a rookie mechanic can do a job in 3 hours while looking up the how-to's and asking some else what to do, and a qualified mechanic can do the job in 1 1/2 hours (even with probles) pricing the job for 5 hours by-the-book is just not right - and many of the rates in the book are written that way.

This, of course, is just my 22 cents worth (that is 2 cents in real time)

 

[Deere Dude]

92 Ford F-150 wiper moto,r two plug. Thats all.

3 bolts, about 6 screws, raise the cowling, remove the clip on the shaft, replace motor, insert clip, screw the cowling back down, and done.

This post was not meant to rile anybody, but if I ruffled anybody's feathers, I am truly sorry and I hope you have a better day.

I am happy that I got the wipers fixed, but I will never like the price, even though some say that it is general practice.

I had a flat rate on an alternator change in a car of 1 hour. The mechanic/owner said that's what the rate books are for. I looked at it and it didn't seem that difficult, even though I'm not a mechanic, so I went down the road and got the alternator and installed it myself in 20 minutes. Would I be wild if he changed it in 10 minutes. Darn tootin' I know I would have been charged 1 hour with the book as a guideline to make it fair for the customer and the shop.
If he would have broken a bolt off, would he have charged for 1 hour. Heck no. He would have charged a couple extra hours for things beyond what the flat rate book says. I know flat rates aren't set for the perfect conditions, but if nothing out of the ordinary happens, give the customer a break.
His rates are set to cover his mechanic, insurance and to keep the lights on. I feel I would have been gouged by the garage, just as JJ does.

If he did the job and I got charged an hour, I would have felt better if the mechanic would have just done the job and puttered around and washed the car and took his time and took the whole hour. But now I don't trust those flat rate books.

In JJ's case, the garage should have only charged for the time it took even if most posts don't agree. The garage is still making a good profit on the time taken.

I had a cat driver working on a septic system in tandem with a big hoe. I had the hoe off doing something else for a little while, maybe a half hour, and when I walked back I saw the cat driver sitting back in his seat with his legs up on the dash with his hands in the back of his head. He said he was waiting for the hoe. I asked him if he was getting paid by the hour, and of course he said yes. I told him to just drive back and forth if the meter is running. In fact that has happened a few times by backhoe and cat drivers. If they want to charge me less for not working, stop the meter, I would be happy with that, but if they are getting paid by the hour, keep the tracks moving and work the hour.

 

[J_J]

I thought this was kind of interesting in the software for labor rate .

[ Multiple Labor Rates - Have up to 4 different labor rates ]

What is that all about?

one rate for friends

another rate for good looking women

another rate for avg Joe

another rate for someone you don't like.

 

[beppington]

I thought this was kind of interesting in the software for labor rate .

[ Multiple Labor Rates - Have up to 4 different labor rates ]

What is that all about?

one rate for friends

another rate for good looking women

another rate for avg Joe

another rate for someone you don't like.

Some more:

Another for jobs you like

Another for jobs you don't like

 

[JDgreen227]

Some more:

Another for jobs you like

Another for jobs you don't like

I thought is was like this:

Regular rate is $50 an hour.

If you watch me work, $75 an hour.

If you help me work, $100 an hour

If you botched it up by working on it first, $150 an hour.

 

[Ford tractor]

You get an estimate to do a job, and the labor is, say $45 per hour, and maybe the mechanic gets $18 per hour . They say that the time to install a wiper motor is three hours.

Now you watch them install the motor in one hour, and watch them work on others vehicles during your so called time.

Your argument is only valid if you agree to pay them actual time & materials at the quoted rate. What you have (if it's the same as 99.99% of them) is a firm fixed quote to do the job when it takes up to the estimated maximum time -- not a per hour T&M estimate. You are on the hook to pay at least the quoted amount, unless it goes OVER the estimated time.

If you don't like to pay for simple things like that -- do what I do and turn your own wrenches.

 

[mostly_gas]

JJ what makes you think the $45/hr is any more accurate than the 3 hr time?

 

[FredH]

Try going to my shop for my semi , $90 hour labor . They have a time clock and never touch another job in that shop without first punching out on original work order . They have ran several computer trouble shooting programs with out even charging me .
We just budgeted $15,000 for an in frame , after all said and done bill came to $9,400 . Only 1 new injector needed but main savings was labor . We went with a rebuilt head with our good core and the labor saved rather than spending time rebuilding original head was a huge time and money factor . Still chasing a sensor demon in the EGR system , thus we have ran the codes a couple of times to see what way to go next .
I also get great deals on parts , They either really like me for being a loyal customer or they like my money .:thumbsup:

Something I found out though the other day , They work on all brands of trucks and engines . They did Warranty work on a Cummins , took them 6.4 hours to fix . Cummins would only pay them 3.5 hours .
Cummins sent them the truck as their local shop was backed up . So basically they got hosed . Detroit and Cat are just the opposite . Takes them 6.4 hours , they get paid 6.4 hours .

Fred H.

 

[garcol]

This thread has me really irked off.
Dealerships and repair shops are nothing but thieves.
I have only dealt with them limited amount of times, and always when i got stumped and couldn't fix the problem. Guess what, each and every time they charged me there going rates and still could not fix the problems. Each time I do that I get reminded that even with their schooling and high tech gadgetry they are still thieves! And each time I end up fixing the problems myself.
Fixed rate shops will never see a dime of my money unless i am paying for a machine that does what is needed, (machining work etc).
Time and material is only fair and if your very good I will pay higher hourly rates.
These fixed rate shops that have mechanics making good money are mostly hacks and although they may beat the clock for fixed rate repair most of them do piss poor quality work that wont last.
Basically in a nutshell "If you want it done and done right, you have to do it yourself".
Of course there are exceptions to this rule. But in my opinion I repeatedly see this as the only truth that holds.
This is of course my humble opinion only.

 

[Bird]

This thread has me really irked off.
Dealerships and repair shops are nothing but thieves.
I have only dealt with them limited amount of times, and always when i got stumped and couldn't fix the problem. Guess what, each and every time they charged me there going rates and still could not fix the problems. Each time I do that I get reminded that even with their schooling and high tech gadgetry they are still thieves! And each time I end up fixing the problems myself.
Fixed rate shops will never see a dime of my money unless i am paying for a machine that does what is needed, (machining work etc).
Time and material is only fair and if your very good I will pay higher hourly rates.
These fixed rate shops that have mechanics making good money are mostly hacks and although they may beat the clock for fixed rate repair most of them do piss poor quality work that wont last.
Basically in a nutshell "If you want it done and done right, you have to do it yourself".
Of course there are exceptions to this rule. But in my opinion I repeatedly see this as the only truth that holds.
This is of course my humble opinion only.

Yep, your opinion only, and so far from reality it's incredible. Of course there are good and bad in almost every occupation or profession, and there are those with more knowledge, training, and experience than others, but I think most of them are trying to do right. No, sorry about that; I don't think they are; I know they are. By the way, what's your occupation?