If you're causcasian you're in big trouble

[Chuck52]

Re: If you\'re causcasian you\'re in big trouble

Egad, Wroughtn_Harv,

I'm pretty sure Elvis is dead, but I'm beginning to believe that plane crash was faked and the Cowboy Philosopher is alive and well and living somewhere in Texas.

Chuck

 

[rmorgan]

Re: If you\'re causcasian you\'re in big trouble

Richard, I missed your question last night. I use Lexis.com, which is a subscription service of Lexis/Nexis. I think you can find free legal search stuff at loislaw.com, though.

 

[patrickg]

Re: If you\'re causcasian you\'re in big trouble

"Immigrants with other languages have come in
the past and they or their children have learned English. I believe that will continue to
be the case without a law."

The law in question was not to change immigration, or prevent children from learning English, or to criminalize not knowing English. Your surmise is correct. The kids will probably learn English, law or not. Trus stuff but not to the point.

"I don't believe that sink-or-swim is the best way to teach
water safety or language skills, so I have no problem with trying to address language
problems in our schools. "

Again we are in agreement!

"I do not believe that the U.S. will somehow lose our ability to
do business with the rest of the world if we do not declare English to be our official
language."

This is less cut and dried.

"Do I see harm in such a law? I imagine someone could find a way to abuse it.
That's what laws are for, nicht var?"

No, yo no creo. What is your point here? Since all laws can be abused and abuse is bad to reduce abuse we should not have laws? You and I apparently either don't have a difference of opinion or can't seem to articulate it as I agree with the majority of your statements some of which, like mine, might stray off the central theme.

The motivation for an English is our official language law is from various directions. Some feel it is the last chance of an oppressed MAJORITY to preserve an important piece of their way of life. I'm not paranoid about it but they aren't entirely wrong in their concern. Some feel strongly about some of the other issues I mentioned.

You allude to it being a step toward a police state, which I find more than a bit extreme.

Treat the country as a biological entity. It is encumbent on that entity to do that which is required of it to maintain itself or be replaced and lose its niche. We aren't too good at that.

Without being alarmist let me tell you a little story about how to make frog soup. Put a frog into hot water and he will jump out so you put the frog in cold water and heat the water slowly. The frog gets relaxed and gets used to the temp as it slowly changes till he is so hot and relaxed (ever overstayed your time in a too hot Jacuzzi?) that when he finally perceives the water temp as a threat he is unable to get out.

This is the way we Americans allow many things that out founding fathers held dear and died for to be eroded. Gradualism will take away many of our rights, freedoms, and priveleges because there is never enough "immediate" change to warrant "reasonable" men to take action over such a small thing. Hey, it is just a grain of sand, no big deal. Enough grains of sand will burry you.

Peace brother,

Patrick

 

[livincountry]

Re: If you\'re causcasian you\'re in big trouble

W-Harv, I believe you reside in Texas. I have visited Plano on several occassions and know of a BP station on East Plano Parkway where the unemployed (typically Mexicans) hang out looking for day jobs. As it was explained to me, if you need some physical labor you can pick up these guys. They will do the work, you pay cash drop them back off and you go on your merry way with no oblications. Harv, is this common where you are located? If so, have you utilized them? If so, are you obligated to pay some of the humanitarian needs of the guys' wife or children? I say no. The migrants may work for 3 months here and now the company employing them needs to support their families?

Why is this a hot topic? because there are no easy answers.

 

[WVBill]

Re: If you\'re causcasian you\'re in big trouble

On the subject of a law declaring English as the official language. Would this not be the equivalent of the statement on US paper currency: "This note is legal tender for all debts public and private."

In other words: "English is the official language for all contracts public and private."

The loacl Piggly Wiggly MUST accept dollars - they are not required to accept Pesos, or Euros, or Yen even if the customer only has Pesos.
Contracts written in English are enforcible even if one of the parties only reads Spanish, German or Japanese.
It is incumbent on the customer to find somewhere to exchange Pesos for Dollars. It is incumbent on the participants in a contract to find someone to read English.

 

[Knight9]

Re: If you\'re causcasian you\'re in big trouble

Regarding Canada...<font color=blue>but for now despite her best intentions they can only lend their valued assistance. </font color=blue> I guess this is my main point. The US is responsible for the US!! There is NO ONE in Canada, or I would suspect any other nation, that desires the US to "look after us" when it comes to culture and "western values". Canada isn't "lending valued assistance" when it comes to Canadian culture and values!! Frankly, if you look at the literature of the conservative groups who are fighting to support Judeo-Christian values....much of the blame for the degradation of society is placed squarely on the shoulders of Hollywood and the American courts who "set precedent" in left wing court cases. If the US wants to lead in the protection of western values and culture, they should do so by example...the best type of leadership. Being a military superpower really has nothing to do with it.

<font color=blue>more particularly Christianity is on a world wide decline, only here in the US are the numbers holding roughly steady</font color=blue> Here is some Canadian data:

begin quote
"The results of an Angus Reid/CTV/Globe and Mail survey released today show that greater than eight in ten (84%) Canadians say they believe in God. Not only do many Canadians believe in God, but two thirds (67%) say that their religious faith is very important to their day to day life. In terms of specific beliefs, seven in ten (69%) Canadians say agree with the statement "through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus, God provided a way for the forgiveness of my sins." Canada is predominantly a Christian country. More than three quarters (77%) of Canadians identify themselves with a Christian church.

These are the findings of an Angus Reid/CTV/Globe and Mail poll conducted between April 11th and April 16th 2000. The poll is based on a randomly selected sample of 1,500 adult Canadians. With a sample of this size, the results are considered accurate to within ± 2.5 percentage points, 19 times out of 20, of what they would have been had the entire adult Canadian population been polled." end quote

Kevin

 

[8NTX]

Re: If you\'re causcasian you\'re in big trouble

Harv,
Don't get me wrong. I absolutely agree with you in that by paying rent, they are taxpayers just like everybody else and are entitled to the benefits of property owners including public schools, police protection, etc. My main beef is with those who are here illegally, and with those who want all the benefits of being an American all the while not considering themselves to be Americans. And these folks are the ones who disproportionately are putting a strain on the system with their need for free health benefits, more police protection, ESL teachers, etc. And people who refuse to adopt to American ways, language, and culture probably hurt their own children the most. Think of how many Hispanic kids who were born here, but never learn to speak English until they are in school. Do you believe they are at a disadvantage? They are further isolated, making them comfortable only with their own kind.

As to the Worldcom implosion, this will affect their shareholders and employees first and foremost, while the overall impact on the public in general will be negligible. The market will be eager to step up and fill in the voids left by their services, and I seriously doubt if very many of these employees will end up on welfare as a result of Worldcom's demise. Believe me, there will be no public bailout of Worldcom like the congress keeps doing for Amtrak.

 

[Bird]

Re: If you\'re causcasian you\'re in big trouble

<font color=blue>where the unemployed (typically Mexicans) hang out looking for day jobs. As it was explained to me, if you need some physical labor you can pick up these guys. They will do the work, you pay cash drop them back off and you go on your merry way with no oblications. Harv, is this common where you are located</font color=blue>

livincountry, I'll answer part of your question to Harv. It's been 40 years since I lived in Plano, so I don't know what goes on there, but in farmin' country where I live, that's a very common practice.

 

[8NTX]

Re: If you\'re causcasian you\'re in big trouble

Livincountry,
In regard to what you said about the dayworkers in Plano. In the neighboring city of Garland, the city recently built a day labor center just for these workers. It seems that so many men were hanging out at the local convenience stores and gas stations that the city decided it would be better to build them their own shiny new place to hang out at. Another example of our tax dollars at work....to benefit (primarily) illegal immigrants.

 

[patrickg]

Re: If you\'re causcasian you\'re in big trouble

WVBill, Thats a big, YUP! Sounds about right to me. Someone would have to be pretty far into the conspiracy theory fringe to turn your succinct outline into an embryonic **** police state instrument.

Tower of babel anyone? We need a single language of comerce and law. Anyone here ever talk to any higher placed Canadian armed forces folks about the advantages of having French speaking troops in their ranks? Way back in colonial times there were different currencies proliferating and it made for a great deal of restriction on commerce, a basic pain in the a$$. I embrace multiculturalism to a degree and feel that our culture is enritched by an infusion of the best that other cultures has to offer (hybrid vigor again). On the lighter side it gives us more holidays and excuses for parties. On the serious side, I trully believe we need a common language to help unite us and I decry the tendency so prevalent of late to see groups demanding to be equal but separate. Are immigrants coming here to become Americans, found a new country, or to try to make us a colony of their country?

Back in the bad old days of slavery in the US, votes were cast when states formed to decide on whether to be slave or free. In advance of these votes, huge groups of people were mobilized and moved into the area to effect the outcome of the vote. As some areas of our country become heavily impacted with separatist minded immigrants they become defacto colonies of "the homeland". The ability to communicate in English lessens the need to band together to survive as survival is enhanced by being able to communicate with the rest of the adopted country. Making English the official language fosters and encourages the use of English especially in the case of contracts and other legal documents. Truly, having contracts and legal documents in many languages and combinations of languages would be a quagmire in parallel with the tower of Babel. Why encourage it?

In the US we publish voting materials in more languages and dialects than I care to count. If those voters can't understand English, how is it that they learn enough to cast an informed ballot? We need to ween folks a bit toward a basic ability to communicate in the language of the land, English. Making English the official language of the land is a good positive step toward keeping our contry united through commumications between and amoung all our peoples.


In California there are many suporters of a movement to take back the state. No, to my knowlege they are not planning an armed revolution even if at rallies you hear things like, "viva la raza, viva la revolucion!" Acording to what I could glean from their posters and talking to "folks" in the bario, it is a movement to remake/retake Califia for spanish speaking hispanics. Anyone out there know more they would share? I haven't been there in over a year.

I have seen nothing, even from the most radically conservative or the lunatic fringe white supremacists to indicate that anyone wants to make speaking a foreign language a crime.

Try to imagine what it would be like to tune in to CNN and watch the house or senate in session trying to legislate and debate in all the languages that could be spoken by representatives. If English is not formally the official language of the US then a representative from the bario could reasonably expect to make his presentations in Spanish and let everyone deal with it. Likewise any of the various asian American reps could expect the same. Should we have live simultaneous translations for all the possible languages that could be used. What about the congressional record? Print the foreign AND translated versions. What about dissagreements over the translation? What counts, legally, the translation or the original "foreign" text? Why would a sane person want to go down this road?

We need a common unifying language of state and commerce. We need it guaranteed now and in the future! English is accepted as that language internationally and for the most part in the US. What sort of misplaced ideal of "treating everyone fairly" could possibly be worth the horendous confusion and wedge which would be driven between citizens of this nation if we made all languages legal. Canada had quite enough trouble with just one state and one other language. How would it be if all languages were legal in all 50 states? Not reasonable you say? How do you decide which languages to discriminate against? You can't just have English and Spanish. What about Latvian immigrants or Botswanans? This soon becomes the argument of the beard or at least reductio ab adsurdum if not both.

WVBill, thanks for your clarifying comments. It forced me to think a bit more and realize just how truly one sided the logic really is on this issue. I'm still waiting to hear a clear explanation of why recognizing all languages as legal in the US would be better than just one.

Patrick

 

[TresCrows]

Re: If you\'re causcasian you\'re in big trouble

"The US is only responsible for the US", yeah, I agree, I wish the rest of the world did also. Apparently Koffee and the UN think we should pay for everything as does much of the world and since it is also apparently our fault no matter what happens such that state trained Islamic kamakazi pilots feel the need to knock our buildings over--I will again stick with what I said. Only the USA has the power to defend our Western Civilization and since you insist, then Canada is welcome to defend her own as I am certainly tired of paying for the entire ungrateful world. Let's point out that some of the terrosist entered this country via Canada and little has been done to provide assistence to the USA in that regard, something some of us have taken note of. On the other hand, Canada and Britain have always been good friends and we have had an open border arrangement for many years but there is a saying that I like, good fences make good neighbors and maybe it is time for a fence so to speak.
Knight, I will not respond any further to you in this thread, have a nice day, how's the tractor? J

 

[Chuck52]

Re: If you\'re causcasian you\'re in big trouble

Patrick,

<font color=red>Someone would have to be pretty far into the conspiracy theory fringe to turn your succinct outline into an embryonic **** police state instrument. </font color=red>

I had decided to drop out of this particular discussion as it was clear it was going no where of importance to me. However, as the above line, and your earlier reply to one of my posts indicate, you seem to think I'm worried about a law declaring Engliish as our official language being the beginning of the slippery slope leading to a police state! I'm not into debate, and I don't remember my old logic courses well enough to recall the exact name of this particular tactic, but I did not say that; I did not mean that; I didn't even think of it until you brought it up. Now, of course, you have planted the idea in my lunatic fringe mind! I can see it now! This law will prevent any Spanish speakers from spreading the truth about Roswell!

Chuck

 

[DaleW]

Re: If you\'re causcasian you\'re in big trouble

This is an Editorial written by an American citizen, published in a local
Newspaper. He did quite a job; didn't he.

IMMIGRANTS, NOT AMERICANS, MUST ADAPT

I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11, we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Americans.
However,
the dust from the attacks had barely settled when the "politicallycorrect"
crowd began complaining about the possibility that our patriotism was offending others.I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge againstanyone who
is seeking a better life by coming to America. Our population is almost entirely comprised of descendants of immigrants. However, there are a few things that those who have recently come to our country, and apparently
some born here, need to understand.This idea of America being a multicultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity. As Americans, we have our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle.This culture has been developed over
centuries of struggles, trials, and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom. We speak
ENGLISH, not Spanish, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language.Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, learn the language!
"In God We Trust" is our national motto. This is not some Christian, right wing, political slogan. We adopted this motto because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly
documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture. If Stars
and Stripes offend you, or you don't like Uncle Sam, then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet. We are happy with our culture
and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things where you came from. This is OUR COUNTRY, our land, and our lifestyle.Our First Amendment gives every citizen the right to express his opinion and we will allow you every opportunity to do so. But, once you are done
complaining, whining, and griping about our flag, our pledge, our national motto, or our way of life, I highly encourage you to take advantage of one other great American freedom, THE RIGHT TO LEAVE.

Addendum:
This fits just right. It seems so ludicrous that our government, which is we the taxpayers, spends so much money to have telephones at government
offices answered "press one to continue in English and press 2 for another language." Like the credit card machines in our largest "made in America"department store, Walmart, first question: English or Spanish?. One must press a button to operate the machine.

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Re: If you\'re causcasian you\'re in big trouble

Dashel overriding the Consititution? You got to be blind! George Bush is more of a threat to this country's Constitution than anyone else has been in a long, long time. How about snagging up suspected U.S. terrorists and imprisoning them without legal counsel, or being charged with a crime. Like the governement said, "We just want to question him". Well....Doesn't he have the right to remain silent? I do not defend terrorism.....but I think it's wrong to violate the constitution in order to protect it!

 

[rocky2]

Re: If you\'re causcasian you\'re in big trouble

The revelation that an American was involved with Afghanistan's Taliban regime has sparked much debate on the issue of treason. While the U.S. federal government has never executed someone convicted of treason, the U.S. has tried about 30 treason cases in the nation's history.
The Constitution defines treason in article III, section 3 as:
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort.
The framers of the Constitution added that in order for someone to be convicted of treason, two witnesses must testify to that fact or the accused must confess. Congress has the power to decide the punishment for a convicted traitor.
The revelation that an American was involved with Afghanistan's Taliban regime has sparked much debate on the issue of treason. While the U.S. federal government has never executed someone convicted of treason, the U.S. has tried about 30 treason cases in the nation's history.

The Constitution defines treason in article III, section 3 as:

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort.
The framers of the Constitution added that in order for someone to be convicted of treason, two witnesses must testify to that fact or the accused must confess. Congress has the power to decide the punishment for a convicted traitor.
And as for Mr. Das-hole, perhaps I'm being a bit too harsh on the wannabe Warlord from the country of South Dashelota.

 

[tdenny]

Re: If you\'re causcasian you\'re in big trouble

rmorgan,

<font color=blue>"Ten percent of the U.S. population owns 81.8 percent of the real estate, 81.2 percent of the stock, and 88 percent of the bonds.Ten percent of American households own 72 percent of the total wealth".

"One percent of the U.S. population owns sixty percent of the stock and forty percent of the total wealth. Two percent of U.S. wealth holders own 54 percent of all net financial assets; more than half of families had no financial assets, or owe more than they own."</font color=blue>

Yeah - this is true - out here we call it capitalism. I think you'll find those type of inequities in ALL non socialist countries. Perhaps we should go the route of the NFL and institute a salary cap in order to level the playing field.

<font color=blue>
However, many are blocked by lack of access to learning resources, and it is pretty darn hard for me to understand why having multilingual signs or educational programs threatens my "majority" status.
</font color=blue>

I don't feel threatened but I'd like to know How are these folks "blocked" from access to learning resources? I'm curious. I believe anyone can go to the nearest community college and sign up, pay the tuition, and attend a basic English class just like I could. I might be wrong here as I was in college a while ago.

Why should I have to pay for multilingual signs or educational programs? You know how much the governement charges people for those signs.

I cannot believe that I have to choose which language I want to use when using the local cash machine. When I was in Europe last year - I didn't see multiple languages offered on the "tube" or at cash machines. There exists a much larger melting pot over there than there exists here. In those countries they simply have their national language and that is just that THEIR national language. If you want to come, visit, live, etc then you'll need to learn it. Seems fair.

Respectfully,

 

[rocky2]

Re: If you\'re causcasian you\'re in big trouble

Some of our favorite lil South Dakota Socialist things:
The crux of this thread;
Sen. Tom Daschle (D-SD) announced his legislation to grant 245(i) amnesty to illegal aliens, which is co-sponsored by Sen. Ted Kennedy (D-MA), chairman of the subcommittee on
immigration for the Senate Judiciary Committee.
Due to Sen. Daschles ongoing obstructionism, there is a Senate delay in action over the House-approved Immigration Reform & Accountability Act (H.R. 3231). Obviously, enacting
amnesty for illegal aliens and opening the doors for more potential terrorists and criminals are higher priorities for Sen. Daschle.

Mr. Daschle Won't Guard U.S. Sovereignty ;
The House Appropriations Committee had tacked on to the defense appropriations bill a measure that writes into law President Bush's rejection of U.S. participation in the ICC, with all its assaults on U.S. sovereignty.
Daschle said. "We will come right back and offer IMF and U.N. funding resolutions and legislation. We'll get this cranked-up all over again very quickly. So this isn't the end, but it is the end of that particular bill" .

Daschle won't/wouldn’t "allow";
presidential judicial nomination votes
Stimulus package votes
Votes to produce live witness in the Impeachment hearings

In regards to the “detained” spoken of, to the Socialist Majority Leader Thomas Daschle’s credit…
he said Congress was "able to find what I think is the appropriate balance between protecting civil
liberties, privacy, and ensuring that law, enforcement has the tools to do what it must."
Oh, by the way, since Clinton News Network didn't mention it...Al still lost Florida.

 

[Knight9]

Re: If you\'re causcasian you\'re in big trouble

<font color=blue>Let's point out that some of the terrosist entered this country via Canada and little has been done to provide assistence to the USA in that regard, something some of us have taken note of. </font color=blue>
Canada certainly has immigration issues, as does the US, Great Britain, etc. I sincerely hope that Canada and the US both clean up their act in this area. We would all like to see that.

Kevin

 

[rmorgan]

Re: If you\'re causcasian you\'re in big trouble

TD--

Enjoyed your comments. I wasn't holding out any of the statistics I found as being bad things. Quite the contrary; I am a firmly-entrenched and gleefully-participatory capitalist, and quite pleased about it, thank you very much!! I was simply saying, apropos the title of the thread, that white Americans are hardly an engangered species, whether they remain a census majority or not. As to my learning resource comment, one of the early posts discussed the wisdom and/or disgustingness, as the poster saw it, of bilingual classroom education. If somebody can't understand the language in class, they can't learn; pretty elementary, I would have thought. As to having to learn the language when we go elsewhere, I have found signs in English in Thailand, Turkey, and Indonesia, among other places; if those governments can afford the extra letters, I'm guessing we can to!! English is becoming the worldwide lingua franca, which will eventually be a good thing; in the meantime, I still don't see the harm in working to ensure that everybody's boat gets a little float.

 

[tdenny]

Re: If you\'re causcasian you\'re in big trouble

rmorgan,

I enjoyed your comments as well. Hopefully I didn't come across as too much of #$%^ you fill in the blank. I'm also glad to hear that you are a "gleefully-participatory capitalist." I must have misunderstood I thought you were guided us towards a happier lifestyle where all the wealth would be evenly spread for the good of the masses. My mistake.

My own experience with regards to language belies to a couple of trips I had in South America. I spent 3 weeks in Uruguay a couple of years ago and nobody (I mean nobody) spoke a lick of English. We where able to make due because of the friendliness of the locals and because we had a very talented Spanish/Portugese speaking peer. I immediately purchased a Spanish/English book as I took a lot of opportunities to wander out alone. This didn't help much but I left the country wishing I had taken spanish (instead of French) in high school and vowing to learn spanish as soon as possible. I still haven't done that but I also do not travel as much as I used to. The point of this lengthy iteration is that I would have learned Spanish immediately if I were to move there.