Mark @ Everlast

[Mark @ Everlast]

Here's the deal.
Canada, has always done their own thing. We stand behind the product. They stand behind theirs. Their marketing stragegy is different than ours, and not the same. They carry different product than we do as well. As far as confidence level....IF Miller only puts a 3 year on theirs....What does that say about theirs? I don't think it has anything to do with confidence level rather than they have different strategies. Eventually we will likely go to a standard 3 year with the option to purchase 2 additional years if wanted...all to control prices. All companies figure in the price the cost of the warranty. The Everlast Canada units cost more to the Canadians the the US, including shipping cost of operation in CA etc...so all that is factored in. Even though prices are similar in many cases...at some point you have to account for the additional cost, and factoring in warranty repair and their marketing costs, results in a change in warranty. I'd point out that the first units we sold with the 5 year warranty are now out of warranty. 3 years of 5 years, it really doesn't significantly affect the warranty repair rate on our side. It's the month to 6 months where we see the most claims. And most are in the first month as in the case with any electronic item. After that they are almost nil but there is still some cost attached to it. The 255ext is an excellent product. With the advanced pulse you'll get as much penetration on aluminum as a Dynasty 700....Go over to our site and see the thread about it from Jim who is in WA who has posted some extensive work with that unit in testing doing welds up to 3/4" and 1" single pass welds.

 

[Markcuda]

One of the reasons I bought a Everlast was because of the warranty.

 

[camshawn]

When I was looking for a new welder last summer, I found that Everlast Canada did not want to deal with me on the west coast. It was just not economic to ship the unit across the country for a warrantee claim at my expense so I chose a Thermal Arc 211i that I could get it repaired at several locations in the Fraser Valley if needed.
Cam

 

[Shield Arc]

Mark do you have any statistics of how many welders are damaged in shipping? I don't think I ever told you this, but UPS crushed the feet on my PowerArc 200. No big deal a trip to the hardware store for some new feet, and the machine works flawlessly:cool2: so why cry about it. Now my V350-Pro came by truck freight, it didn't work right, local welding supply sent their outside sales rep to my house because he was a repair tech for ESAB in a previous life, he couldn't figure it out, so a trip to Seattle to the repair center, covered by warranty of course, but an hour + each way and $5.00 bridge toll!

 

[4shorts]

If I lived anywhere close to you I'd be waiting for you every morning at your shop door. You would get so tired of seeing me, you'd go to town and get a restraining order to keep me off your property!:laughing:

You'd be more than welcome. I'd actually enjoy the company. I spend 80% of my time alone in the shop. There are times I have people drop in to see what I'm up to and they stay and watch for awhile. I don't mind as long as they don't get in my flight path :laughing:
We have one old guy that comes in just to see what I'm doing. He's a war vet and a nice guy. Sometimes we take him to dinner.

Well this Everlast thing has just plain soured for me. I had thoughts of taking one of their units and doing something really cool with it. I had a custom cart in mind that has never been done before but this warranty discrepancy has me totally turned from their product.

I just can't see why warranty is different. If my Millers craps out I don't send them away, I bring them to a warranty centre in the city and they call when it's done. Well that's what I've been told. I've never had a warranty claim on any of their units. If Everlast can't have a service centre then that's another reason not to buy in my opinion.

I think Everlast has to standardize there warranties from the two countries because it is the deciding factor for me in the consideration of me buying a unit from them. It's just a matter of wanting to be treated equally and fairly.

I guess Everlasts loss of my business will be Millers gain. Very unfortunate. :confused3:

 

[Arc weld]

Comparing Miller is like apples and oranges. Nobody is questioning Miller because Miller doesn't have a different warranty for each country. They have a 3 year warranty period, no matter where you buy it. Having a longer warranty shouldn't really affect the price. Most warranty claims do appear fairly early but if the company doesn't have confidence in their products could be reflected by a shorter warranty period. If Everlast wants to compete on the N. American market, perhaps they should give Canada a little more credit. Could you imagine if cars sold in Canada had 2 years taken off the warranty compared to the US? Customers would look elsewhere. Marketing? I live in the biggest welding hub in Canada and have never seen any Everlast advertising and would have had no idea it even existed if it weren't for this site. I think they have some good machines but I think anyone would question why they were getting jipped out of 2 years of warranty.

 

[Shield Arc]

I don't understand it either,:confused3: only thing different from you guys and us, is a line drawn in the dirt. And I've been over that line a few times, guess what there isn't actually a line anyway.:laughing:

 

[Arc weld]

No line but does it feel like you just walked into freezer?

 

[DXN1EL]

I'm in Texas so :licking: Freezer:cool2:

 

[Shield Arc]

No line but does it feel like you just walked into freezer?

Oh BC isn't that bad. Now your neck of the woods! :shocked:

 

[CNC Dan]

Could be but with the conversion it's supposed to work out the same distance and time.

If the question gets answered it's going to be really interesting hearing the reason why the warranty period is two years shorter in Canada for the Everlast product than it is in the US.

Just watch, I bet it will be volume or market share or to keep cost down "we had to shorten the warranty period" which we all know is cow dung.

If those excuses are it I will see a new Miller in the near future. :thumbsup:

I think it just comes down to numbers. Somewhere some beancounter was going over a table of figures and reducing the warranty helped the bottom line.
It reminds me of something a friend told me when he was getting a home loan. My friend had good credit, and was always getting credit cards when they sent an offer in the mail. The loan officer told him that he would need to close some of those accounts. The reason was that he could go from no debt to big debt overnight. Those open cards represented potential debt.
And that may be how they figure into Everlasts accounting. For as long as those warrantys are out there, they represent potential costs to the company. They may need to hold some kind of capital to offset that potential cost. Or it may hurt the companys credit rating or something.

 

[Mark @ Everlast]

Arcweld, there are people who have never heard of ESAB...except from a site like this, but that doesn't mean they aren't a strong company and are well established. We are well beyond "IF Everlast wants to compete in the American Market..." stage. We are competing and doing so quite well. We're well on the "majors" radar for sure...and they are privately acknowledging us and even talking with us about industry issues. We are growing exponentially every year. We sell nearly every unit we can produce and have invested heavily in our product. We have major marketing agreements in place with several national companies, sales agreements with many regional Airgas distributors, and a heavy e based direct market approach. (Something which Miller themselves have just adopted by selling directly off their website).

Again, it has nothing to do with the confidence level in the product, rather, the cost of distribution, warranty etc all figured in to stay competitive. Their shipping costs are much higher than ours. They have to freight everything in by rail. We are located right in a port town, just a few minutes from the port...Again, they pay a higher price than US through licensing etc. It's privately and independently owned. There are no "apples and oranges" here. A 3 year warranty is a three year warranty. A 5 year is a 5 year warranty. Sort of like telling someone that a lifetime warranty on a Craftsman product is less valid than one on Snapon. You may have personal feelings, and view each product and its marketing, quality, and country of origin differently, but the same general type of warranty applies...and a 9/16 wrench whether you pay 45.00 for it or 8.00 that is guaranteed for life still will turn the same screw and make the owner the same dollars per hour while doing it.

IF Miller puts a 3 year warranty on their product, and Everlast in Canada is willing to match it, then that says a lot about the product. We introduced the 5 year here back in 2008 with the introduction of our early IGBT line. We have confidence in it, or we'd be broke...and out of business by now if we couldn't stand behind it due to the cost it was costing us to do it, or run out of business by NOT standing behind it.

It's completely different marketing strategies. As I said earlier, they sell product we don't and we sell product they don't...they have different torch packages even. We have distribution in Canada, the US, Australlia, the EU, Africa, South America, Russia, New Zealand, and UAE...each licensed distributor is privately owned and distributed, and not directly owned and controlled by Everlast US (even though it is based in the U.S.). But we do give general direction, develop the product and work with them as they are still under our basic scope and contractual agreement. Each country has to meet standards locally as well that can affect the cost... and factor in ultimately to the warranty length versus the price point. In those countries, the warranty ranges from 2,3 and 5 years. Canada does have a service center as well as the US. Canada does a majority of their advertising on the web and they also travel to regional shows. They are smaller in distribution than the US, but coming along. Everyone has a right to "grow" a company. They're still several years behind us on that level...in size and scope. Unfortunately for both Everlast entities, the youth of our company, means not having a service center on every corner. BUT what it does mean that a single centralized service center offers better repairs because of more specialized factory training and equipment, and your machine isn't mixed in with two or three other brands and perhaps 40 or 50 models and some tech is having to jockey back and forth on repairs. There are some advantages, though having a repair center on every corner is nice for the customer, but not practical for a newer company that isn't 100 years old.

I guess if a person wants to spend 4 k-5k more for an Miller product, and is disappointed that Everlast isn't exactly the same as what Miller offers in the way of warranty and service centers, there's not much we can do or say to make a difference. I do think that is a bit drastic in regards to realistic expectations. I think if a lack of 2 additional years on our product'ss warranty even though it is equivalent in length and basic scope to Miller is enough to "sour" someone to go out and buy the vastly more expensive product, that Everlast was never in contention in the first place...at least that's how it seems....since the verdict already seemed to be in before I gave an explanation.

 

[ericher69]

Could you imagine if cars sold in Canada had 2 years taken off the warranty compared to the US? Customers would look elsewhere.

Arc Weld;

This does happen all the time

http://f.redflagdeals.com/showthread.php?t=1195193&mobile_type=touch

Google it many many more examples of this like;

Why does USA get Kubota Insurance and we can't in Canada??

 

[murphy1244]

So no more Kubota's in Canada either?

 

[Arc weld]

The 5 year warranty could be a big selling point when competing against the long established brands. You can be sure that if Miller cut 2 years off the warranty for machines sold in Canada compared to the machines sold in the US, the Canadian customers and distributors wouldn't be sitting back and taking it!:yell:unch:

I say apples and oranges in regards to, Miller markets and warranty's their machines in Canada pretty much the same as they do in the US. Even Esab in Canada and the US work closely with each other. The way Everlast seems to be set up is that, other than the name, they are totally separate companies with different products. I think this is a big drawback if they want to expand their N. American market. Esab is big in electrodes and wire here and some plasma equipment but for welding machines, they are hard to sell and parts back up isn't the greatest. There is an Esab warehouse in Edmonton but they don't carry many parts and most have to come from the US but some are stocked in Ontario. Waiting a week for common consumables is a big drawback for most.

A good example of a company hurting themselves/resting on their lorals(sp) is Thermal Dynamics. They invented Plasma cutting and not too long ago were the cream of the crop in Plasma. Now, while they have a decent machine, they haven't kept up with the competition in terms of new innovations and they don't seem to be doing much marketing other than extending the warranty to 4 years. They were also one of the first with small inverter machines. Thermadyne has even changed the name to Victor Technologies for the TD machines. It's an attempt to play off the Victor name that is so popular in oxy/fuel. It's one of those, you snooze, you lose type deals and the TD name has lost it's appeal. I think they need to do more than just change the name if they want to get back where they once were. I think if Everlast looked at N. America as a whole instead of having almost totally different strategies, they would have a lot better success in increasing their market share. Canada is a big market and Alberta especially for welding equipment. I would love to be able to try out an Everlast machine but I don't know of anyone that sells them here. I did talk to someone who was (apparently)interested in becoming a dealer for Everlast but they said his first order had to be something like $20,000 and they couldn't give him a firm date on when he would receive it. That's a lot of money to spend on a basically unknown name competing against established names like Miller, Lincoln and even Esab or Thermal Dynamics. Maybe it's just the Canadian licensee that doesn't really know a lot about marketing?

 

[Mark @ Everlast]

I think that TD/victor are having one of their best years ever. No one is resting on their accomplishments. They don't appear to be. We're certainly not. We're powering ahead with several announcements to come later in 2014. Not sure why a company would kill a long standing name, but more power to them if they make it work. Sort of like Miller killing the Smith name.

Canada knows about marketing. They just have different tactics and they're growing and making their own strides. They have a different market focus than we do.

 

[eastexan]

I don't understand it either,:confused3: only thing different from you guys and us, is a line drawn in the dirt. And I've been over that line a few times, guess what there isn't actually a line anyway.:laughing:

I remember back in the 60's when I went to Canada, I noticed a couple strange things right away.

One was seeing Ford pickups named "Mercury". I had to rub my eyes to make sure I wasn't hallucinating.
And the second thing was seeing "Imperial" gallons at the gas pumps.

Also, when the people talked too fast and proper for me to understand, I knew I wasn't in Kansas anymore.

 

[bcp]

I remember back in the 60's when I went to Canada, I noticed a couple strange things right away.

One was seeing Ford pickups named "Mercury".

And Dodge pickups named "Fargo."

Bruce

 

[Arc weld]

Thermadyne/Victor as a whole may be doing OK but dropping the Thermal Dynamics name, one can only speculate that the name has lost it's brand recognition/loyalty in the industry. The competition put more into R&D and and now TD has to try and get back to where they were. They're doing some weird things at Victor. Have you seen the new 400 series torches with what looks like plastic handles? We got some in and sent them back. Not everybody holds a torch the same way or likes the valves in the same position. With these torches, you don't have a choice. The plastic handle is molded like a big hand grip. :confused3: They'd suck even worse if you had small hands or were left handed. :duh: They even marked the valves red and green and which way to turn them on and off. A cutting torch isn't new technology and it certainly isn't rocket science to figure out which valve is which or how to open and close them. If anyone actually needed that information, they should be as far away as possible from the high pressure and potentially explosive cylinders!:banghead:

I just saw this on a Victor site. Are they basically saying they're catering to inexperienced young foreign workers who are abusing equipment?

The 400 Series features a contoured, high-strength alloy torch handle that fits naturally in most operators’ hands. While lighter than a brass handle, the new handle better resists abuse, and it balances well when hoses and attachments are connected.

To simplify use, Victor color-coded and labeled the oxygen and fuel valves for instant identification and easier operation by indicating directions for open and closed valve positions.

“Until now, it was very difficult for an inexperienced worker to effectively and intuitively identify gas valves,” says John Henderson, Group Brand Manager, Victor Technologies. “The 400 Series torch provides operators with the visual acuity necessary for safe and effective oxy-fuel cutting, even if English isn’t their first language.”

Henderson notes that design changes to simplify use help companies cope with the retirement of skilled operators and need to hire younger, less-skilled workers or workers who speak English as a second language. The durability of the torch handle also improves longevity in situations where tools receive rough treatment, a feature specifically requested by the supervisors interviewed during product development.

I'm guessing Miller wanted a torch line since Lincoln has Harris and Smith was available? Smith is a very good brand but just not as popular, at least up here. The school I went to had all Smith torches. Seems to me it would be better to keep the Smith name as a division of Miller, the same way Harris is a division of Lincoln?

Somebody was crazy enough about a Mercury, they wrote a song about it. LoL
Go to Newfoundland and try to understand what they're saying. If you can understand that, you should get a masters degree in communications. I was just reading about the German Enigma cypher machines used in WW II that they believed the code couldn't be broken. It was and experts say it shortened the war by 2-4 years. Now if the Germans would have used Newfie language...:laughing:

 

[Scooby074]

^ I was looking at those plastic torches just last week at AirLiquide. I literally LOLed at them. Plastic.. on a torch! What a stupid idea. You know its not the BS spin ( longevity in situations where tools receive rough treatment) that victor is trying to put on them.. Its plastic is cheaper than brass. Keep chasing those pennys Victor.

Something else that was disturbing... I was close to buying a Metabo 5" grinder, till I flipped it over.. Made in China! WTF! Metabo gone to china too