Massey Ferguson 4608 Lethal defects

[Fergie4608]

Hi everyone here, I am writing this not looking for someone to be able to solve this, I am writing it as a warning for anyone buying, or owning this 4600 series Tractor, I am in Brisbane Qld Australia so excuse my accent, I purchased the tractor Oct 2015 new from North Pine Motors in Qld and the Salesman demonstrated the tractor showing me how fantastic the shuttle worked for loader work He ran it back and forth very vigourously then all of a sudden it dropped all of its drive in one millisecond and stalled out with the tractor launching itself in the air and daylight under the tires, he was embarrased and said oh just an adjustment and predelivery will have that fixed. So I bought the tractor, Well it was not fixed, I got it Friday and complained to him in the show room on Saturday morning. Now Both Agco and North Pine Motors call this an Aggressively Savage Shuttle defect and I term it as a lethally defective Shuttle release from both my own suffering first hand, now it also has Hydrualic Steering and that just dissappears with there be no flow to the steering at all for random time and distance, usually 30 to 60 feet also the Alternator would scream its head off randomly, and the Joystick for the loader would be centered but it would still keep lowering so you would have to grab it roughly and swivel it around till it stopped, so he said the shuttle was just a sticky servo and would get better, remember he said it would be fixed in the pre delivery, the joystick would be sticky Valves and would also right itself, as for the steering absolutely clueless, I have spent my life in Machinery, Earthmoving and other gear so I thought to myself either your clueless or you just don't want to do anything about it, I was cranky and decided by now that I did not want to waste my time with the dealer anymore. Now where we were was like a pool table as flat as so the Shuttle near broke your back when you shuttled back and forth with the Slasher, for you others a Brush hog. So to save my spine and my neck I would shut everything back down to idle to shuttle to the other direction becuase I got sick of it stalling the tractor at 2000 rpm as full load then dropping 100% drive in the other direction. Now for any one wanting answers the actual Fault feels like no drive at all in the direction you were travelling, what is supposed to happen is it is still engaged and winding down as it builds the resistence and then loads up and goes in the other direction, the Fault is absolute free fall until it then dumps 100% drive in the opposite direction so you can imagine the shock loading on all of the driveline and my physical body as I can tell you Savage does not do this justice as later tested by the Dealers Mechanic when you can actually see daylight under the tires while it stalls the tractor again at 2000 rpm. Now in August 2016 we purchased our own property which is steep and overgrown so lots of clearing Brush and burning off piles, that was exciting as with no drive at all, the longer the tractor thinks about the change of direction the more savage the shock load will be so when you are head down on a steep slope for 5 to 10 seconds with the bucket in the fire then you know how servere the load will be when it changes direction, After 14 months and many times complaining to the dealer I finally contacted Agco directly and explained how life threatening these defects were and how I had not been able to get them fixed through the dealer, so they did not acknowledge me but for the first time the dealer contacted me and attended the tractor, the Mechanic Tested the Faulty Joystick, Tested the drive shuttle and found it to be Aggressively Savage which meant the Tractor unloaded all HP in One millisecond uncontrollably at 2000 RPM and Launched itself into the air and stalled outright, he then updated the software and repeated with the exact same result, he then said he would order the Joystick and report and come back with a later software update from Agco, so 3 weeks go by and I contact Agco again this time telling them how unhappy I was that they did not talk ot me at all considering how much trouble I had with the dealer, again no response but the dealer again called from that complaint and the Mechanic changed the joystick that they got 2 days after the last visit, the Mechanic tested the shuttle and exactly the same response from the Tractor, he did the update and tested again and yes another launch into space and again I will go and report the findings, 4 weeks go by again and me with a lethally defective tractor from new and now 16 months of this crap and still an alternator screaming its head off. so this time when I complain they come they take the tractor back and split the tractor in half and the have to get O rings specifically manufactured to their tolerances locally anywhere when these lethal tractor show up and there is not just one of them don't kid yourself, the tolerances are poor in the servo housing and oil by passes instead of moving it to make the smooth shuttle change in direction so they have to get them made locally becuase they have no idea what the tolerances will be. now you would like to hear me say it ends there and this is important for anyone suffering anything like this, when the tractor came back I was completely over the dealer, the tractor was as tight as a seal and they are water tight. you can leave this tractor on a 20 to 30 degree slope with no brakes on and everything up and walk away and it will stay there, while your operating it you need 20 to 40 percent of its power to move the tractor, if you turn the wheels and steer it goes up considerably in tightness/drag if fact if the clutch is used or shuttled to neutral and wheels turned on a steep slope the tractor will stop, I am talk about defying gravity, now I had 390 hours in the seat before this and it was great power was great, none of the new faults where there, but I kept using it hoping not to have to deal with the dealer but the tightness was getting worse, then moving some dirt Boom she blows the front diff. I tell Agco and the dealer and dealer aranges as usual to come get it and nothing so I contact them and say bugger it don't bother and I contact Agco daily for 5 days and 5 days I get 8 different people, no one will give more then first name and no one will give position and this is tech support Melbourne then finally a young fella finally calls back and says hes the Qld Rep and he will get her done, I tell him this is my only Tractor and I need to get things done here with Horses every day and when it rains here you cannot get around this property with anything else, It was also my only means of watering the Horses for night time. SO I finally agree to them taking it to fix it as I want it replaced cause the shock load damage it has endured to date of 16 months means the cannot repair that, never called me as he promised and never over saw the repair as he promised, 3 weeks later I finally get him on the phone, he calls the dealer and for 2 days the dealer has no one to comment in the tractor, finally he says they are waiting for parts and those parts for the front diff are not meant to be available for another 3 weeks, he says he pulls strings and in another week the diff is fixed, but the dealer is so frightened by now that they insist that Agco inspect and sign off on the tractor before its returned so it took 4 weeks for the repiar and 3 more weeks before Agco could get the Qld Rep to Brisbane to test and sign off on the tractor, oh and finally they replaced the alternator at this point its around 19 months to get to this stage and its returned with the same tightness it has had since it was split in half and the O rings fitted, it still has the same loader Hydrualics issues and Lethal Steering it had before but now you can't tell if it will make it up a hill or not with it stalling out and steering not working all over the place. These are actual Facts, they are not my opinions, Agco now say that you can not use a loader on this tractor without the carrying of a 500 to 800 KG weight on the back otherwise it will blow the front diff. With the dealings I have had with Agco trying to get to talk to someone that can actually fix something is a nightmare, they will not give you contact details, they will only connect you and if they don't pick up to bad, they will never call you back in Australia, and for the last 7 weeks I have been sending them emails about these lethal defects and still hear nothing back even though this tractor is under warranty. Check out this and many other video's on this tractor and see for yourself Rookie Mistakes in Tractors - YouTube

Yours Truly

Garry

 

[CalG]

Paragraphs are helpful

The issue with the HST/ I'm not sure. Operator training can overcome most any unfamiliarity, but the Tractor operation could pose a hazard during the introduction cycle.

I wish you the best.

 

[JWR]

Fergie -- what a mess ! Sorry to see it. I have a 2011 MF2660 here in the states and it took me 3 yrs to get all the bugs out. I am very happy with it now. Back to your 4608:

1) A friend here has a 4608. His only significant problem in 3yrs ownership was the "aggressive shuttle." His dealer (actually in a fairly remote area in the US with nearest dealer 80 miles away) came to his farm and and did what I heard was an "adjustment" for the response of the shuttle. As I recall there is a sensitivity adjustment for the engagement of the shuttle. Like yours, it was lurching when using the power shuttle (he said bad enough to damage equipment he thought) prior to the adjustment. It has been OK since that.
2) There was known design deficiency with the 4600's when they first came out regarding insufficient power steering force. It worked fine until you were in mud with a heavy load on the front end and then would not turn the wheels until you moved the tractor some. I heard there was a change at some date and later deliveries of the 4600's had more power steering strength. It was not a catastrophic problem but a lot of people were unhappy. I know one dealer who refused to accept any more machines until the steering issue was corrected.
3) Based on your lengthy description there are several things that seem clear. a) You have incompetent people working on your tractor. I personally doubt there was any reason to break it in half in the first place and secondly, returning it to you with things so "tight" that it would not operate normally is just beyond absurd. b) There has been so much wrong that I think you need to leave the tractor at the dealer and refuse to accept it until all issues are fixed. In this country the AGCO regional reps are the ones who really resolve such issues and tell the dealer what AGCO will pay, what the dealer has to do, and what if anything you have to pay. Insist on direct conversation with that regional rep.
4) Your loader issue is really a totally separate one I think. Almost certainly the loader valve is at fault. Certainly a competent dealer would already have put gauges on the lines and determined whether you have correct pressures entering the cylinders. If you do have correct pressures I would bet the loader will lift huge loads, far more than your YouTube video shows. If you elect to keep the tractor and try to resolve some of these things yourself, then go direct by phone to the loader valve manufacturer and discuss the behavior. My 2660 using a DL250 loader refused to tip the bucket downward by force enough to lift the tractor. AGCO replaced the loader valve twice with defective valves out of their stock without ever going back to the source (!!!) I finally fixed it myself by installing a kit from the mfr of the valve.
Overall, my recommendation is that you involve the AGCO regional Rep as soon as possible, demand that all the problems be corrected, discuss/suggest him finding a competent dealer (since yours has proven to be incompetent) and go from there. Make sure all this is done before your guarantee runs out. Here the loaders are only guaranteed for one year.
I have no idea what your laws are like down under but if AGCO does not resolve it to reasonable satisfaction as I described above it is time to find a good lawyer and force the issue.

 

[Fergie4608]

Fergie -- what a mess ! Sorry to see it. I have a 2011 MF2660 here in the states and it took me 3 yrs to get all the bugs out. I am very happy with it now. Back to your 4608:

1) A friend here has a 4608. His only significant problem in 3yrs ownership was the "aggressive shuttle." His dealer (actually in a fairly remote area in the US with nearest dealer 80 miles away) came to his farm and and did what I heard was an "adjustment" for the response of the shuttle. As I recall there is a sensitivity adjustment for the engagement of the shuttle. Like yours, it was lurching when using the power shuttle (he said bad enough to damage equipment he thought) prior to the adjustment. It has been OK since that.
2) There was known design deficiency with the 4600's when they first came out regarding insufficient power steering force. It worked fine until you were in mud with a heavy load on the front end and then would not turn the wheels until you moved the tractor some. I heard there was a change at some date and later deliveries of the 4600's had more power steering strength. It was not a catastrophic problem but a lot of people were unhappy. I know one dealer who refused to accept any more machines until the steering issue was corrected.
3) Based on your lengthy description there are several things that seem clear. a) You have incompetent people working on your tractor. I personally doubt there was any reason to break it in half in the first place and secondly, returning it to you with things so "tight" that it would not operate normally is just beyond absurd. b) There has been so much wrong that I think you need to leave the tractor at the dealer and refuse to accept it until all issues are fixed. In this country the AGCO regional reps are the ones who really resolve such issues and tell the dealer what AGCO will pay, what the dealer has to do, and what if anything you have to pay. Insist on direct conversation with that regional rep.
4) Your loader issue is really a totally separate one I think. Almost certainly the loader valve is at fault. Certainly a competent dealer would already have put gauges on the lines and determined whether you have correct pressures entering the cylinders. If you do have correct pressures I would bet the loader will lift huge loads, far more than your YouTube video shows. If you elect to keep the tractor and try to resolve some of these things yourself, then go direct by phone to the loader valve manufacturer and discuss the behavior. My 2660 using a DL250 loader refused to tip the bucket downward by force enough to lift the tractor. AGCO replaced the loader valve twice with defective valves out of their stock without ever going back to the source (!!!) I finally fixed it myself by installing a kit from the mfr of the valve.
Overall, my recommendation is that you involve the AGCO regional Rep as soon as possible, demand that all the problems be corrected, discuss/suggest him finding a competent dealer (since yours has proven to be incompetent) and go from there. Make sure all this is done before your guarantee runs out. Here the loaders are only guaranteed for one year.
I have no idea what your laws are like down under but if AGCO does not resolve it to reasonable satisfaction as I described above it is time to find a good lawyer and force the issue.

I am not sure how this will turn out as this is my first attempt at replying to anyone, Noted by someone else I am sorry everything reads as one long sentence I am Dyslexic so it tends to be that way.

Well JWR I really thank you that is amazing info you gave me, a couple of things are Agco where the ones directing the software patches and then Agco say that they have some tractors like this and I do believe that it did have to be split only because that was the only thing that fixed it in the end.

Second thing is that I had an amazing Tractor before this, I know that sounds really stupid, the loader would lift really well, Power was extremely good, the other faults were annoying but you guys now gear and we work around things that annoy us if enough good things are there and its reasonably safe, My Shuttle was that aggressive that I was pushing fill out on steep Country to claim land and I had to winch the Tactor back from over the edge many times, My work is Earthmoving so thousands of hours on Backhoes, Excavators and everything else you want to mention. That said I survived it but would have liked to give Agco my Dry cleaning bill for things, and not much gets me concerned.
You have a great deal of knowledge and a couple of things your just a little off with in my Tractor, I don't think when you go through the steering, it wasn't to small but I can tell you I am certain that some how in the cuircutry of the Hydrualics the steering is being robbed of ALL fluid until the Tractor moves enough.
I say this becuase Since the Replacement of the O rings in the Clutch pack this tractor is completely a different animal and that is literally true so I will itemise a few facts and see what you can come back with and please remember they are facts not my feelings.

1 I am wondering if the power loss now is related to a possible Back Pressure issue, I have found that I always knew the 3 things are linked, Shuttle is definately linked to loader, it is definately linked to steering, if all of those functions draw off the same thing and the steering was the last function and starves for oil then which is what I noticed from new, if I was working the pile and close to the truck and I did not want to give ground for the reasons of room around me, I could not operate the steering until I moved the tractor 30 to 60 feet, I can tell you I chased it down enough to know it was when the fluid caught back up that it all worked again, and it was absolutely related to shuttle and loader being operated then no steering.
Now for someone that was running straight back and forth the tractor was amazing in every other aspect, I will tell you lift was exceptional and I have operated allot of gear, balance of machine even going downhill was great except if you turned, but then we all know that is the limitation.
I will explain in a minute why I am positive of my conclusion here.
2 I totally Agree about the Dealer, But Agco here I can tell you I wish I could really show you and I wish I had yours, at this point I am considering trying to go out of the Country and see if they answer to anyone else like USA or Europe, but that said, the things that changed as a result of the O rings are this Tractor is tight, See that does not mean much to you guys because I have seen where people are saying they are great but from new they Transmission is extremely tight, I can't tell if they mean changing gear or the same thing as I have now. So tight means it feels like it is engaged all the time, You know if you were going down a hill and you push in your clutch you break drive and lets call it free spool, no load at all, well this tractor after the repair has no free spool at all Nill Zip Nadda. Until the other morning, I am heading down steep Hill here and talking to myself as you do LOL I decided to just push the limits, I took off on 30 plus degrees using High 1st and the tractor loaded up heaps heading down the hill, So this hill goes to 45 degrees shortly so before that I shuttled to neutral to just see what happens the tractor slows to bearly a walk one foot after another slow amble and slowing then just before the 45 it free spools for the first time since the O ring repair, Do you hear what I am saying here, even depressing the clutch never cuts the connection of drive, yes its not in gear but there is load, Maybe a back pressure might make more sense but there is always a connection, which actually now I say that makes sense as to there was no drive when shuttled before. I think they are repairing things without ever realizing how many things are connected in this particular system. Maybe Back pressure and my explaination won't paint the picture of that but the next thing might fill more in.

3 Loader Function, yeah its crappy valves there and your spot on with all of that. But the Video I showed is the proof of them adjusting the hydrualic system, either Relief Valve or system Pressure and I think its system pressure or there is a good chance I am right for once and in some way they are creating a back pressure in the system. Why I say that is I have now worked out the lethal defect they have now caused which is stalling the tractor with no Balls, The Motor seems under load all the time, the drive is loaded all the time and this never was the case before their repair, But if you go up hill you are hunting her hard and then you need at some stage to steer, Dam she loaded even more when she was struggling and then Dam I just trimmed the bucket for an obsticle or something maybe clearance and Matey she just dropped her nutz in a heart beat and those are all facts, I work of a small down hill pinch onto a road unloaded come down a steep section then over a ledge onto the road, you have to trim the bucket height and then turn full lock and this is down hill and it stalls the tractor, steep down hill in Low Range. There's the answer, Cause just to let you know the Steering is gone at that point before the stall. it was the function that followed the loader adjustment no oil left. Now here is the kicker of why I state this to be fact, The video I showed you is the proof they adjusted the system, this Tractor before the repair was Excellent in lift, Break out and cycle times, its slow as a wet week lift cycle Non existent break out force and if fact if you are holding ANY weight to the pile it will not even try at 2000 rpm you have to roll off the pile for it to even try and its cycle up matches that, So this would all fit together if they decreased that pressure and all of the functions are badly designed and linked then it could be pulling it all the way down on all of the functions.

4 I really pissed them off in asking for the tractor to be replaced and the fact that I took them to a government department here so I think some of the adjustments they did where pay back but they have backfired in that they have made a tractor that was functional into one that is dangerous, one of the points in this is that there fix really wasn't a fix at all, The Manager of Tech Support in Agco here actually states that it must carry a weight on the 3 point at all times the loader is being used, I do not believe for one second that the front diff failed from lifting over the front axle otherwise you guys there would be talking about Front diff failures and before mine this is the only one I have ever heard of, See I don't have any confidence in these guys in Agco here because they are in cover up mode rather then lets fix it. they even want to say you cannot back blade with the tractor front end loader becuase it creates to much loading of the front axle, they also state that you should not be doing loader work with 4 wheel drive.

5 I pissed them off because it took 16 month to get the Shuttle fixed to a standard that is safe, the only problem is the alterations have had I believe un intended consequences that affect all other systems on the Tractor. It is interesting with the loader, because of the Savage Shuttle I used to load out at idle and only just a smidgeon above it and this tractor performed great in all other aspects, the steering was a pain in the *** at times but it to could often be worked around that it was just a nuisence. Such a shame to repair something that other wise was a good tractor. The Steering is now lethal becuase of the turning down of system pressure or relief pressure becuase it has made the tractor unreliable in stalling out in places it would have sailed up beautifully before, I can tell you if they had the shuttle fixed this tractor was not good it was far above that with a few annoying habits LOL

 

[JWR]

I am not following 100% of what you are saying but I think I understand most of it. I can make a couple more comments with very high confidence.
1) The front differential never failed because of lifting with the loader.
2) Carrying some weight on the rear of the tractor while doing loader work is recommended for balance. The idea that it "must" carry a weight on the 3pt at all times the loader is being used is pure bull****t. What does the AGCO rep claim will happen if you do not have a heavy weight on the 3pt ?? Either he is grasping for some way to shift blame (and as you say is in 'cover up mode' ) or else he too is incompetent. I'm not quite sure which is worse.
3) About back blading: The dealers and your user's manual and the AGCO reps have been preaching against back blading with the loaders for years. Partly because the loaders were not designed to handle large loads in the reverse direction. And one thing for certain -- it has nothing in the world to do with load on the front axle !!! That is hogwash. I have done back blading with my loader on very hard baked clay soil SO BADLY that I burst one of the steel hydraulic lines putting so much back pressure on the hydraulic cylinder. You are not going to put much more load on anything than that while back blading !! I replaced the line & nothing else was bothered by it.
4) Whoever said that you should not be doing loader work with 4 wheel drive is grasping to invent a way to blame the user for equipment failures OR he is incompetent enough to actually believe that, OR he is flat stupid. In any case, that all by itself is a terrible commentary on Massey Ferguson in your area. There are literally hundreds of thousands of similar sized tractors to yours in Kubota, John Deere, New Holland, Massey Ferguson and Mahindra world-wide doing HUGE amounts of loader work with 4 wheel drive tractors !
Anyone who denies that is nuts.
Given your overall description I would be VERY MUCH afraid to let those same people work on the tractor any more at all. They may have already done nearly irreparable harm. Somehow you need to get above the level of the regional rep from AGCO (who is apparently a disgrace to the company) and get the machine to a good, solid, knowledgeable MF repair shop/dealer -- while it is still under warrantee. Otherwise I'm afraid you are about to lose the whole thing.

 

[Fergie4608]

I am not following 100% of what you are saying but I think I understand most of it. I can make a couple more comments with very high confidence.
1) The front differential never failed because of lifting with the loader.
2) Carrying some weight on the rear of the tractor while doing loader work is recommended for balance. The idea that it "must" carry a weight on the 3pt at all times the loader is being used is pure bull****t. What does the AGCO rep claim will happen if you do not have a heavy weight on the 3pt ?? Either he is grasping for some way to shift blame (and as you say is in 'cover up mode' ) or else he too is incompetent. I'm not quite sure which is worse.
3) About back blading: The dealers and your user's manual and the AGCO reps have been preaching against back blading with the loaders for years. Partly because the loaders were not designed to handle large loads in the reverse direction. And one thing for certain -- it has nothing in the world to do with load on the front axle !!! That is hogwash. I have done back blading with my loader on very hard baked clay soil SO BADLY that I burst one of the steel hydraulic lines putting so much back pressure on the hydraulic cylinder. You are not going to put much more load on anything than that while back blading !! I replaced the line & nothing else was bothered by it.
4) Whoever said that you should not be doing loader work with 4 wheel drive is grasping to invent a way to blame the user for equipment failures OR he is incompetent enough to actually believe that, OR he is flat stupid. In any case, that all by itself is a terrible commentary on Massey Ferguson in your area. There are literally hundreds of thousands of similar sized tractors to yours in Kubota, John Deere, New Holland, Massey Ferguson and Mahindra world-wide doing HUGE amounts of loader work with 4 wheel drive tractors !
Anyone who denies that is nuts.
Given your overall description I would be VERY MUCH afraid to let those same people work on the tractor any more at all. They may have already done nearly irreparable harm. Somehow you need to get above the level of the regional rep from AGCO (who is apparently a disgrace to the company) and get the machine to a good, solid, knowledgeable MF repair shop/dealer -- while it is still under warrantee. Otherwise I'm afraid you are about to lose the whole thing.

Thanks JWR, no you are 100% following what I was saying and every point was exactly the point, it's unbelievable but the guy you are refering to that all of that came from is the Technical Support Manager for Australia, I would not waste your time with anything the dealer might say and in fact they have never said a word at all, every action that has been done to the tractor has been handled by the Agco Manager, I have taken your advice and someone else's and I contacted Agco USA and laid it out to them to try to see if anyone in the world is higher ranked then Australia to try to get to the top to work back down. You know at some stage someone is going to notice and stuff will roll with them saying how did this ever get to this stage, but I am pushing on the wrong people. When they made the adjustment to the Hydrualics it was either to be smart or they were trying to take even more load off the Front Axle in the tractors lift capacity but I can tell you they would not have had any material to lift and just been guessing it or as I said they are trying to be nasty, but the stuff I described to you about performance has been so badly affected as a result to dangerous levels, I am guessing that this was not their intention but a cascading affect and them not understanding how everything else will be affected. Well at least with the inspectors on Tuesday will at least have a good look at it all, I can tell you this tractor handled the loader really well loaded with stability. Well here is hoping that USA cares LOL

 

[mapper]

Since when would back blading with the FEL put stress on the front differential? If anything it puts less stress on it, aggressive back blading can lift the front axle of off the ground, completely unloading it! The only thing that I can think of that would stress the front differential is driving it on pavement, mine certainly lets me know if I turn on pavement with 4WD engaged, I think most of us here are aware of it.
I can't help but think that the maladjusted shuttle shift probably stressed every part of the drivetrain on the tractor and that even if the shuttle shift is fixed that other drivetrain components may fail way before they should under normal conditions.

 

[Fergie4608]

Thanks so much Mapper, hey can anyone tell me if you can up load a document cause I would love for you guys to see this official letter from Agco Australia so you guys know I am not joking with you and I would love your comments on the real deal, But the kicker is they refused to return my tractor unless I signed this document, Yes it was Agco forcing me to sign this after the 4 week diff repair and 3 weeks waiting for Agco rep to fly for 2 hours each way so I could get my only tractor back and they knew that.

Garry

 

[JWR]

I don't think there is any way to upload documents in TractorByNet forums. If it is a letter, you could just photograph the page and then up load the photograph using the 3rd icon from the right in the header above the message you are typing. You could also scan it and store the document as a jpeg image. A jpeg image can then be uploaded using that same icon third from the right.

Astounding that was the Tech Support Manager for all Australia !! GOOD GRIEF !! This whole thing is incredible.

I'd be as polite as you possibly can, but get through to the customer service people in AGCO headquarters wherever that is. You can bet that AGCO corporate does not want this sort of reputation.

 

[JWR]

... I would love for you guys to see this official letter from Agco Australia so you guys know I am not joking with you and I would love your comments on the real deal, ... But the kicker is they refused to return my tractor unless I signed this document, Yes it was Agco forcing me to sign this after the 4 week diff repair and 3 weeks waiting for Agco rep to fly for 2 hours each way so I could get my only tractor back and they knew that. Garry

I have not seen the document and of course do not know the entire situation BUT, it just occurred to me -- the best possible outcome might be for them to refuse to return your tractor and you just demand your money back instead of the tractor. I gather this has been going on so long that we are talking "fair market value" for a used machine in good operating condition with that number of hours on it and that year of manufacture. If the tractor is as badly screwed up as it sounds to me like it is, your best outcome may very well be to sell it back to them and let them grapple with the mess. Put it behind you and go buy a replacement.

 

[Fergie4608]

Well see if that worked as I am not very good with this stuff

 

[Fergie4608]

JWR I offered all that to them there is more video's of what has gone on, on my U TUbe Channel where I posted that link and I have changed the name on a few of them now so they should get looked at, I want then to replace the Tractor and I even said I would be willing to upgrade at a reasonable cost, but then all the dragging on and stuff happened.
I did warn them it was going to escalate until it gets replaced as you said its suffered so much shock load for 16 months continuously while I tried to get them to fix it, after all this we are now at 21 months old and as you said I believe the driveline is that comprimized that it cannot be repaired and they should replace it, but there is not even a call about fixing the rest of the serious faults so that is why its getting bigger and bigger daily, trouble for them the document trail makes no sense why they want to Knuckle on.
It's just stupid have a look at this Agco/Massey Ferguson 468 Review 1 Unsafe Tractor or just lethal Buyer beware. - YouTube

 

[Fergie4608]

Oh and the Front diff repair listed by the dealer is $6,220

 

[JWR]

So from the letter they are claiming that all is well and they have fixed all issues. Of course test it when you get it back and see if it really is completely fixed. Frankly, I'd probably go trade it in on some other new one myself.

Back to some of the technical issues: The whole topic of reducing loading on the front axle is pure nonsense. Your 4-in-1 bucket weighs 400kgs. That is only 880 lbs. My 2660 tractor is very much the same size and capacity as yours, just older model. My 4-in-1 bucket weighs a little over 1000 lbs -- 120 lbs more than yours -- and has never been a problem plus I often pick up a full load of mud in it while cleaning out springs (!!) OK, I do keep a 1400lb bush hog on the back all the time so I do have plenty of ballast. Mr.Hill stated that the 400kgs bucket was "too heavy for the tractor." That is bull. Not so. Silly. There is no way on this earth that a 400kgs bucket on that tractor made the rear wheels "light" even with no ballast of any kind ! That is the opposite of truth with my fake apologies to Jake Kerr. The counterweight on the rear will have a very small effect on the load on the front axle -- any junior engineering student can see the lever lengths rule out rear 3pt loading having much effect on front axle loading. Being "required" to use a rear counter weight is absurd in spite of the fact that they claim it and you agreed to the terms. The claim that lack of a counter weight on the rear "accentuated" the aggressive shuttle change is completely bull. The power shuttle either engages and disengages properly or it does not. ****, take the bucket OFF if they are claiming that causes wild lurching when using the shuttle !! It won't take long to prove that is nonsense.
Anyway, if this thing works OK when you get it back I would trade it in as soon as I could and get as far away from it as I could. For one thing, you know you don't have a competent dealer service shop -- they proved that. So what ever happens next you cannot trust them to fix it. Find a good, competent dealer and buy some other tractor from him.

 

[mapper]

Using a counterweight makes sense from a safety standpoint but does not change the front axle load at all. The amount that can be lifted with the FEL is determined by the hydraulic pressure and the cylinder size on the FEL, if the tractor is being unduly stressed by using the FEL then it was not designed correctly. If it can lift more than the weight of the tractor behind the front axle then without ballast the rear is coming off of the ground, I would assume you would notice that!
Some tractors weren't really designed for FEL use, such as the Ford 8n, and the front ends would sometimes fail (and were a real bear to steer), modern tractors that are sold with loaders as an option should be designed to handle that load, if not a loader shouldn't be an option.
My opinion is you received a lemon and then the dealer and customer support failed you big time.

 

[Fergie4608]

So from the letter they are claiming that all is well and they have fixed all issues. Of course test it when you get it back and see if it really is completely fixed. Frankly, I'd probably go trade it in on some other new one myself.

Back to some of the technical issues: The whole topic of reducing loading on the front axle is pure nonsense. Your 4-in-1 bucket weighs 400kgs. That is only 880 lbs. My 2660 tractor is very much the same size and capacity as yours, just older model. My 4-in-1 bucket weighs a little over 1000 lbs -- 120 lbs more than yours -- and has never been a problem plus I often pick up a full load of mud in it while cleaning out springs (!!) OK, I do keep a 1400lb bush hog on the back all the time so I do have plenty of ballast. Mr.Hill stated that the 400kgs bucket was "too heavy for the tractor." That is bull. Not so. Silly. There is no way on this earth that a 400kgs bucket on that tractor made the rear wheels "light" even with no ballast of any kind ! That is the opposite of truth with my fake apologies to Jake Kerr. The counterweight on the rear will have a very small effect on the load on the front axle -- any junior engineering student can see the lever lengths rule out rear 3pt loading having much effect on front axle loading. Being "required" to use a rear counter weight is absurd in spite of the fact that they claim it and you agreed to the terms. The claim that lack of a counter weight on the rear "accentuated" the aggressive shuttle change is completely bull. The power shuttle either engages and disengages properly or it does not. ****, take the bucket OFF if they are claiming that causes wild lurching when using the shuttle !! It won't take long to prove that is nonsense.
Anyway, if this thing works OK when you get it back I would trade it in as soon as I could and get as far away from it as I could. For one thing, you know you don't have a competent dealer service shop -- they proved that. So what ever happens next you cannot trust them to fix it. Find a good, competent dealer and buy some other tractor from him.

JWR, My Friend thanks so very much for all your input I have great respect for all your input, And your right in every aspect. The interesting thing is that Tractor was nearly perfect in so many ways, Power, Balance is extremely good, and I mean extremely good so just becuase a young pup and Jake is that, I have not met him but from the phone I would say very early 20's so no experience at all and that is why they threw him in to the fire as a sacrificial lamb, I am sure when it goes pair shaped he will wear allot of it, Allan is middle management and yes your absolutely on the money with your gut feeling, See here is Australia the Finance works so much more different, I can't walk away from the debt, It sounds a great idea to say keep it and either fix it or I am not paying but they have me that they could take everything and bankrupt you and that is our financial system here so the whole time they have your tractor you still have to make the payments but you can't do the work and they also know that but don't give a rats. The Tractor works now but is unsafe under any load or slope and without steering allot of the time, but all that said I can still at least do work. Its one of those funny things when you look at it where the Tractor you had with those faults was bad and it was dangerous but it actually physically could work, where as the tractor I now have is dangerous in so many other ways and now it can't do the physical work if that makes sense so which one would I want? You see this property is steep and slippery so when the rain comes, then the Tractor is actually the only thing that can get water and feed down to the Horses so that is my Problem. Look it all sounds so gloomy but you guys helping with information helps support not only my understanding of many things but it does bolster my willingness to Knuckle on and the more I get my story out there the more that Agco cannot keep turning their back, To be fair and I am a Fair person most of the time, the Tractor was good in so many ways before just with a few life threatening problems, So I am actually surprisingly not against Massey Ferguson Products, You guys state what I already knew and that is the Dealer is the real lemon I got stuck with and the crew in Tech Support Australia Are the real problem and in the future with this things may be that a big broom goes right through there and sweeps the drift wood out. Agco has spent an enormous amount of money on Public relations and building an image so I know somewhere there will be an enormous amount of care about this damage but its just an issue of time and getting to the right persons. But People like you are the real hero's of bad things like this. I know I say I would not buy another product from them when I am angry but I would love my tractor without those defects and would have that tractor in a heart beat, so its people who are to blame and not the tractor.
Thanks Again

Garry

 

[Fergie4608]

Thanks so much Mapper, Specifically their garbage about light in the back end is exactly that, I wish I could give you guys a ride on the old tractor so you could feel what it was like, forget the savage shuttle, the Balance of this tractor for loader work is as good as any Backhoe and that is saying something when you don't have all that weight out the back, I ran this machine down some steep areas working with lets just say good loads and its a rock in that straight line, Trust me I have used allot of gear and this is a Great loader platform even carrying loads way down a slope and she never ever picked her butt up even as a warning, Jake is a kid and does what the boss tells him and I don't mean that harshly, Allan would say so how did the back end feel and he would have to say light because that is what Allan wants to hear, Look he gave me a massive lecture originally on the Back Blade, the using 4 wheel Drive in loader work, and so on and so on, believe me the letter was the short version of a load of cods wallop but I was forced to sign it even though its a great work of Fantasy by someone who has no idea, I could prove my point in a heart beat if I could put them here in the real world and show them, but they did not want that as they felt more comfortable on a concrete driveway. But I so Value all of the input your putting in, and don't worry to much right now becuase this is about to go to the next level so they have not won at all and its not finished by a long shot. But your all very right about This tractor has suffered to much driveline damage that it will have to be replaced, I have since found another Government department responsible for Unsafe Products and injuries suffered from them so I have only just contacted them and from here it's just going to get bigger and bigger and costing them more money so sooner or later they will realize I am not slowng down or going away, rather I am just about to get going:thumbsup:

 

[DLTTrekkers]

Go to the newspapers !

 

[airbiscuit]

I looked at many of your videos on YouTube, but I didn't see any which actually showed the savage lurching. Posting a video showing that is more compelling than a video showing you talking about it.

 

[Fergie4608]

Hey Airbiscuit, I didn't tape much back then as I just thought you know its a problem and they will fix it but it dragged on and on, I thought you know its a lethal defect so they will get after it soon, then I got angry with the dealer and excuses so I wanted nothing to do with them, to the point that I was angry enough that I did not want to spend any money with them or support them becuase of the nonesense they were giving me in excuses just made me realize that either they didn't care or want to fix it or they really had no idea of how to fix it.
What has been clearly stated from the outset is the Dealer is absolutely useless, anytime something is worked on something else is messed up, 18 months to get the alternator fixed so that tells you how switched on they are.
Then when I did by pass the dealer and went to Agco directly and I went to great lengths to tell Agco about the dealer and how I wanted nothing to do with them and to please send me to another dealer, Apparently here in Australia the Dealer is responsible for the warranty so they do not want to just allow me to change dealers, Anyway they just ran it back through the dealers each time the complaint came through so at around 18 months they finally did work to actually fix the drive or Shuttle if you prefer so even at that time I did not have real reason to think this was going to go this way so I did not do lots in preparation for this, I wish like you say I had done allot and again this is why I am here and why I am doing all of this so that anyone else can learn to prepare even if they don't end up having the hassles I have had.
My Story is that the repair that they have done to the tractor has only swapped one set of lethal defects for another and I need answers as to why and what happened, the turning down of the Hydrualic flow was either done to restrict load on the front Axle so it can't lift and it can't use any break out force or it was done as pay back to annoy me and make it half a tractor. Or they did it to cut down on the resistance inside the tractor, this tractor has incredible drag inside and I have called it binding but I don't think that gives people the right picture, I can park the tractor on a steep hill and come out in the morning where its cold, our cold is a sookie 8 to 10 degrees Celcius not your temps, and I can start it warm it then hop on and release everything and still on the steep slope in High rank facing down hill it will not move at all, I take off in 1st and it loads up hard nearly stalling, Lately I have been experimenting further and further with this so I start it rolling and break the drive and it stops on a steep hill now this hill steeps soon to 45 degrees and unless I push it with drive it will not move, break drive and it will stop in about 1 turn of the front wheel, Now the other morning for the first time ever I repeated this about 4 times and then left it in Neutral and it actually broke loose into no engagement for the first time since the repair and free spooled, no connect of drag, now I have not been able to repeat this at all and I have tried so many times since trying to understand.
Now this I believe is possibly why they adjusted the Hydrualic flow to try to lower the Back pressure of Drag? but they have caused many other problems by them lowering this Pressure, like the steering issue that is known to be on these tractors and which nothing has ever been done to try to fix that on this tractor is now worse and more unreliable as well as the performace issues, I do also believe that the Stalling is actually worse becuase of the lower pressure but I can't understand why that would create more load on the Motor of the Tractor but again since the repair its there and its happening.
So I hope this explains some of it and yes I wish I could go back in time and redo many things but again I have to say I would never have believed I would have to fight so hard for seriously dangerous defects and lethal ones to be take care of and its still under warranty yet nothing gets done at all.