Question on JCB swing cylinders

[Richard]

Ok, so the buggers are off.

Put 4 straps around them....2 in front....2 in rear.... used the straps to sort of 'ratchet' them down, one at a time.

Found out that with the ram in the hoe socket (even if not pinned) that helped act like a lock with the trunnion in place. Had to do some twisting & turning to get them out. I think it will be much easier to put them back up collapsed and then used the hydraulics to align with the pins (after they're fully mounted)

Here's some pictures of how I took them down (alone, without any help I might add)

Right now, I'm looking to try to do the same thing in reverse when I put them back.

 

[Richard]

Ohhh... I meant to add... there are the four bolts that hold the bottom plate in place. I'm sure I could reuse three of them with zero issues. I "think" I could use the fourth but truth be told.... it was a bugger to get out. I'm guessing there was some crossed threads in there but they were minor. My impact wrench was able to handle three of the four (it's pretty heavy duty).

I had to use the pipe wrench with cheater bar to take the last nut 90% off, then the impact would get it.

I might replace all four of them just to have peace of mind.

 

[BukitCase]

Well, I don't see any extra body parts in the pix so I'd say it went OK

Also didn't see a board for the jack to roll on, or is it just not in the pic?

Those 4 bolts are technically called studs - as in, no head, threads on both ends - a LOT of those have different threads on one end than the other - typically coarse on one end and fine on the other. IF you can find direct replacements, I would also replace them all, and if the new ones have more than 1 thread protruding past the nut I would still double nut them.

No way would I re-assemble that part without anti-seize on the outer threads, and at least loctite blue on the ends of the studs that go into the main frame. Best way to re-install studs is to double nut the end that's NOT screwed into the plate, lock the nuts together HARD, then use a wrench on the OUTER nut to run the stud into its socket tightly. (It helps if you have a bottoming tap of the right size to clean out the holes first.)
Then you can hold the inner nut with one wrench and back out the outer one first, repeat all that til all 4 are back in place.

Hopefully all I saw on the surfaces of the rods was removable crud, and NOT rust pits - ANYTHING but smooth chrome on those rods and you'll soon be REALLY well-versed on this job - because your brand new gland seals will last maybe 8-10 hours of use and start leaking again, especially if any roughness PROTRUDES from the smooth surface.

If you're good on that condition, great - otherwise you may wanna ask your hydraulic shop about rechroming.

Getting there - if your wife is as addicted to what these beasts can do as much as MINE is, she'll nag you to get it back together ... Steve

 

[Richard]

Actually, those 4 are indeed bolts. Though I didn't measure, they're about 12/14" long and about an inch in thickness. (though I'm sure they are in MM's)

In the first picture above, you can actually see where I raised the bolt to get it out of the way from the cylinders under it. I didn't want to hit it and bugger a cylinder or the threads. I was thinking the two were bolts and the rear two are studs.... until I tapped on them and got one of the rears to raise up a bit (lots of dried mud holding it in)

I have one of the bolts in my trunk and will find out about replacing them tomorrow. Also have the lower trunnion "cap" (or whatever it's called) in the trunk. Going to see if the dealer can tack weld one of those caps on for me. I noticed that the side with the cap had held some grease in it while the other one.....

I'm certainly no expert in grading rod chrome.... that said.... all the rods on this machine look to be in good condition. I always try to park it with as many of them covered (retracted) as I can. If the issues are on the microscopic side then it could be toast for all I know.

I'll ask the shop tomorrow for their opinion. I guess they'll know way more about that than me. (ha)

You're right about the projects. We live on the wifes old family farm. Her (now deceased) father has a house out here as well as her (now deceased) uncle. Her cousin lives in her uncles house and between us, we always seem to have a project or need for some extra muscle.

In fact, I've told the wife that if I literally, gave this machine away, we've made money on it for all the projects we've done around here. For example, she once asked me to move her day lillies.... wanted them dug up from 'here' and put over 'there'.

She was pretty incredulous when I walked right past the shovel....jumped on the backhoe.... dug a hole 'there' and then scooped up the flowers 'here' and dropped them in the newly dug hole. She didn't seem to understand the logic of if you have it.....use it!

I actually did use the floor jack. It was too small (short) to reach since I have the back end raised. I cut a 24" piece of plywood and cut a "V" in one end.

I set it vertically on the jack and put the "V" onto the cylinder end of the cylinder. Used it to jack it up a bit when I was trying to loosen them from their mounted position. I tried first to get on my back, use my foot to raise the back end of the cylinder while messing with the ram end. Realizing this was a bit precarious.... I decided to be more rational.

 

[BukitCase]

Might wanna clean the head of the bolt well enough to see what markings are on it - I'd be surprised if those aren't Grade 8 capscrews. If they ARE metric, triple check that the new ones match your thread pitch - there seems to be at least 3 different pitches for every diameter of metric bolt I've come across (one of my two other tractors was made in the baltic area and the other is a French-made Allis Chalmers. One of the hydraulic fittings on the AC is STILL a mystery, none of the fitting types or sizes I've found seem to match it.)

My wife's gotten used to it by now, isn't quite as much fun trying to surprise her. Initially I moved 4 30 foot long rows of Irises, an 8' tall Beauty Bush with a 3 foot root ball (from the front yard to the back) - a 15 foot tall Golden Bamboo with an 8 foot diameter root ball, etc - I have so many implement projects to build for the hoe it's become an avocation of its own

Looking at the rod on your last pic, it doesn't look like it'll need help on the finish, the seal probably just got tired with age... Steve

 

[skyhook]

Good job, Rick...:thumbsup:
Let us know what they charge you too reseal them.

 

[Richard]

Ready for some interesting numbers?

Called the dealer today. asked 'do you have and if so, how much for'

1. The 13" bolt to hold the trunnion plate on (four of them)
2. The nut to go with the bolt (also four of them)
3. The lock washer (which I didn't see/have when I took mine apart)

Also asked about the missing tack welded cover on the under side of the trunnion pivot. I now have a copy of their schematic in my hands and it in fact doesn't show one which suggests to me it might be part of the plate itself. I might call a welding shop for it.

Back to the nuts & bolts.....

He paused when he was reaching the price. I said (without him telling me anything yet) 'expensive, huh?!'

"yeah.... they're $27.00 per bolt"

"Well, I kind of presumed they'd be around $25... ok..."

Now, at this point, I was thinking the nuts would be about $5.00 each (which I find expensive)

"there are no lock washers for this....these are lock nuts"

(mmmm ok... )

The nuts are $25/each

So basically $200 plus shipping just to put new bolts on this. I may not even need replacement bolts (although one of them could use some thread dressing).... I look at it from the other point of view. If I cheap out on the bolts....and one of the old ones snaps, strips or can't be torqued all the way down, what kind of damage could occur to the back end?

So....I ordered them.

This will have a side effect of giving me four extra nuts. I might have their threads cleaned up, and use them as the second lock nut on the bottom.

Still....each piece, $25 a whack?

I did ask if this price included shipping.

After he got up from the floor laughing...... no.

 

[BukitCase]

I just bought some non machine-specific Grade 8 bolts last week for a 3 point scraper/smoother I'm designing - 7/8"x6 bolts, $6.75 each, nuts, $5 each, locks, over a buck each - so 6 bolts, 12 nuts, 12 locks, $135...

I keep having to remind myself it's cheaper than back surgery (that only dulls the pain in my wallet a LITTLE bit)... Steve

 

[skyhook]

Ouch!!!

 

[Richard]

About $950 to have them both fixed..... $200 for the nuts/bolts.....$25 to have a little plate welded on the bottom of the trunnion plate. $50 for 5 gallons of hydraulic oil to replace the $50 worth of oil that I put in 2 weeks ago before I realized I had the leak.

Having big toys is fun but, they're sure not inexpensive.

 

[yanmars]

As they say, the only difference between men and boys is the cost of their toys, and repairs I guess.

 

[BukitCase]

Sooo, Richard - any updates? Just wondering how it's going... Steve

 

[Richard]

Wheels are still turning.

Picked up the two rebuilt cylinders yesterday. They had to load them as I can't lift one by myself. My neighbor (wifes cousin) is out of town for a week.....so nobody to help me lift them out of my trunk until he gets back. (we live very rural so not like I can just to to next neighbor)

Regardless:

1. Cylinders are back in my hands
2. Lower mounting plate has new grease cap welded on
3. Ordered a torque multiplier, it's on way
4. Replacement bolts are here, waiting assembly
5. Ordered a second 1 1/2" socket so I can hold the bolts while using my other 1 1/2" socket to tighten them

Several things in motion. I'm at a standstill right now with no extra muscle to pull cylinders out of trunk and some of the assembly parts aren't here yet (socket & torque multiplier)

Question.... I've not measured the bolt but it looks like it's about 1". The absolute size of it isn't relevant to my question.

Here's their torque chart.

If it is the 1" bolt, it calls for 715 lb/ft torque or, "for lubricated threads, REDUCED by one third"

What would be best used to lubricate them?

I've read things online stating that motor oil might be the best (which I found intersting....then again, "I read it on the internet")

 

[Richard]

Found it...

Here's the commentary about motor oil

Lubricating Threads

 

[BukitCase]

I read the entire page, and I would still use anti-sieze, just lower torque values - especially with the size fasteners you're talking about - in 35 years of heavy industrial maintenance I only saw a handful of problems using anti-sieze, and most could be attributed to ham-handed macho crap.

On the other side of that coin, I rarely saw NON anti-siezed fasteners come apart without damage requiring replacement - although to be fair, mine was a pretty toxic atmosphere - various acids and gases that (in many cases) required face shields, respirators, etc...

On my own equipment (the list on my profile is a small drop in the bucket) I always use anti-sieze except on hydraulic fittings, and have never had a problem with fastener damage that could be attributed to it - I do tend to under-torque somewhat, but not much. Being able to take something apart and put it back together without either a trip to town or ordering parts online is more important to me, sounds like it would be that way for you also.

As I get older (turned 70 earlier this month) I find that "material handling" is an important consideration if I want to continue doing the things I need/like to do - I would think that, given your (hopefully full) recovery situation, some of my "tricks" might be useful to you - here are a few items I've acquired over the years that've proved useful -

700 lb. Capacity Bigfoot Hand Truck
18 In x 12-1/4 In 1000 lb. Capacity Hardwood Dolly
Lever Chain Hoist - 3/4 Ton
1 ton Manual Chain Hoist
High Lift Riding Lawn Mower / ATV Lift
http://www.harborfreight.com/automo...0-lb-capacity-hydraulic-table-cart-60438.html
http://www.harborfreight.com/2-ton-capacity-foldable-shop-crane-60388.html
http://www.harborfreight.com/8-ton-long-ram-air-hydraulic-jack-94562.html
http://www.harborfreight.com/12-ton-capacity-pickup-truck-crane-with-cable-winch-60731-10018.html
http://www.harborfreight.com/1300-lb-electric-hoist-with-remote-control-60344-9376.html
http://www.harborfreight.com/1-ton-webbing-sling-44847.html
http://www.harborfreight.com/2-ton-capacity-heavy-duty-load-leveler-60659.html

And no, I don't work for Harbor Freight (well, sometimes it seems so )

Here's a pic of the cherry picker helping me to fab a better base for a CL find - this slip roll will handle 1/4" plate without a grunt, and will roll 1" steel up to at least a foot wide. Note the replacement air/hydraulic jack on the cherry picker -

Here's the pick-up shop crane mounted on a 3'x5' steel table - Eventually I'll replace the PITA winch with an electric one, it's kinda hard to reach but it still beats using my back...

Hopefully some of these will help you get things done easier - I know how much I rely on them... Steve

 

[Richard]

Looked at those items...(nice)

What caught my eye the most interestingly..... was the sling!

I was thinking I could perhaps thread it through both eyes of the cylinder.....strap it across my shoulders hoist with my legs...

Meh.... then I figured I'd be best served to wait until my neighbor gets home!

I will admit I'm a bit antsy to get some things done.

I could for example, (forgetting about hoisting the cylinder) The the cylinders hoisted, mounted back to the hydraulics. Get them pinned to the backhoe boom & snug the nuts down, waiting for my 2nd wrench to torque them.

Instead....I'm now going back outside to swing my manual pitchfork and spread some mulch around for the wife. :thumbsup:

 

[Richard]

The rest of the story:

Saturday I drove my car into the field and lifted a cylinder to see if I'd be able to lift it. I could, so I pulled them out. Knowing this, I decided to see if I could put it back single-handedly. My neighbor wasn't due home until Monday night.

Stood cylinder on end, put a strap through it to hold it high. Put strap on other end and raised it with one hand while tightening strap with other. Worked fairly nice.

Main issue was the cylinder pivot really wanted to be VERY aligned with the pivot hole before it would go in. This caused some wrestling with it, lowering it, raising it.... cussing a bit. Finally got it in and tightened both straps to hold it.

Repeated same process with second cylinder and got it mounted.

turns out, this was the easy part.

The steel plate that bolts on underneath the cylinders.... well, this was the bugger.

It has four bolt holes so we have a pattern to match. Then, we have the two holes for the pivots of the cylinders.

I had two bolts installed and nothing would line up enough to make anything work. meanwhile, the plate (I'm guessing 50/60 pounds?) was wearing me out since I was trying to lift it while wrestling with it. It fell out of my hands many times. My focus was to not have it fall back on me.

keeping myself intact was pretty high on my list during this process.

finally, I made a quasi-sling so I could try to hold it with the sling while adjusting it with a free hand. This too, basically failed.

I finally took all but one bolt out to lower my alignment points. finally got it started in the right place so added a second bolt and threaded them with the nuts to at least keep the steel plate suspended and my hands free to do other things.

Got it mounted, torqued and greased up.

I also had to put the alternator back on. I took the alternator on this machine and the alternator on the tractor out to be checked out.

so, fixing the cylinders, mounting two alternators cost me the day. I started around 10:00 Saturday morning, quit around 8:00 that night with the hard part done.

Sunday, got up and greased everything and fired it up.

Everything is seeming to work as it should.

Nice side bonus.... the backhoe itself would bleed to the right side of the machine fairly easily. It would hardly ever bleed to the left side, only the right.

I figured I either had to rebuild the cylinders or, the valves (or maybe even both)

Now that I've rebuilt the cylinders, the swing of the hoe is vastly diminished (I mean, you could be on a small slope and just watch it swing 90 degrees in probably 30 seconds)

Now, I've not seen it swing at all but, I've not been on a slope yet. Regardless, if it now swings, I know I have to look at the valves.

Best of all, I still have my 10 fingers and 10 toes. Only a tiny bruise on my thumb nail and one or two on my arm.

I was however, worn out.

 

[BukitCase]

Wow, good job - I tend to "collect" old sayings and euphemisms, and one that best fits this is "Any time I can learn/do something with no loss of body parts, it's been a GOOD day..."

If the new bolts are exactly the same length as the old ones, did you decide to protect the protruding threads with another nut, or is there even enough threads to hold a second nut? Looked kinda close to me... Steve

 

[Richard]

Nope, no room (in my opinion)

I am guessing that I have three, maybe four full threads showing and that's it. Regardless the number of threads showing, it's not enough to fill the second nut.

 

[BukitCase]

You don't need to fill the second nut, but if there are enough threads to HOLD the second nut it will protect the protruding threads against damage, making it easier to remove the bolts if there's a NEXT time... Steve