So would you buy a new GM truck now?

[Hoosier Hay Man]

The way this is playing out is a little scary for the nation. No one for years was willing to admit (including me) that there was an elephant at the party. I think everyone now sees there has been an elephant at the party for some years now.
They will still be some part of at least two of the companies survive. I still am not sure how all three will.

Here is some of what I had observed over the last few years working in manufacturing. My visits to these plants were sometimes during off shifts and not during a staged open house. If you have never have visited a UAW plant and a Toyota plant you would be amazed at the level of intensity difference between the two. Both plants I visited were very clean and had very nice equipment, but I was amazed at how many UAW employees were not adding value by not being productive. I truly believe they didn't know how hard their competition was working. This was three years ago and all I remember was I wanted yell "Wake UP!!! It was like they were living in a bubble clueless to what was really going on outside their walls. If GM would of not allowed newspapers on the production floor they would of had a 25% increase in productivity. There was a lot of low hanging fruit to pick if they would have done it. They both were more concerned with splitting the spoils when times were good than keeping their customers. They could justify their pay for all of the management and labor if they were working as hard as the competition. For the amount of wages paid the Big Three paid should have had all employees with at least a Masters Degree

In contrast the Toyota plant was bustling with action. Every assembly line had a continuous improvement board with before and after pictures of all their improvements for each value stream they had completed. They all knew their TACT time and they had cues to know if they were hitting it or not. If a machine went down I think they had a Beethoven tune over the speakers as an alert and there were maintenance men coming from all directions on three wheeled bikes for the repair and you didn't get in there way, they were on a mission. There is a sense that management and the employees are working toward a common goal.

The largest obstacle for the Big 3 to overcome right now is perception. They look like damaged goods.

Sorry for the rant. The mess we are in isn't good for any of us. UAW, Big Three or the Nation

 

[Builder]

I am sure that the people that read my posts are suprised I have not posted in this thread before now. To be honest this is the first time I started reading this thread. Interesting reading. I read through the whole thread. Everyone is blaming the UAW for all of the car companies problems. For those who have not read my posts before. I actually am employed by a national union directly to do work for them. (not anything associated with the UAW) I also have my regular job where I am a very loyal union member. I might have a bit of a different opinion about the problem than the posters I have read. Lets talk about executive salaries. Is the CEO of ford making millions of dollars a year plus bonuses and how good a job is he doing. His company is going to be out of buisness in a year unless the taxpayer loans him billions of dollars. The CEO of GM is in the same boat except he says he wont last the year unless we give him billions of dollars now. ditto for chrysler. Does someone that runs a company so badly they are going bankrupt deserve to make millions of dollars a year and other millions in bonuses. These are companies that are going bankrupt they say. It was not until someone in congress raised cain about them coming to DC in their private jets to beg for money that they decided maybe we could sell those jets. How many does ford have is it something like 4 and I am pretty sure that GM has 7 according to the news. I may be wrong but to the best of my knowledge none of the Unions in the United States has their own fleet of corporate jets to fly around in. I know the president of my union takes commercial airline flights anywhere he goes. I have seen a lot of posts about the decision of the big 3 to make bad car designs as part of the problem. How many members of the UAW are in on the decision of which car designs to make and sell. Or How many members of the UAW are in on the decisions of what type of materials to make the car out of. Every post I have seen on here about what is actually wrong with the cars themselves appear to be the result of a decision on how to make the vehicle. All decisions like that are management decisions not union. Everyone is talking about the benfits that union workers get. Do you think that those benefits are given at gunpoint. Does the head of the UAW go to the CEO of ford and point a gun to his head and say you are going to give us health insurance, or higher wages, or no layoff protection ( which I did not know the UAW had by the way) NO he doesnt those benefits are negotiated. The auto manufacturer senior management had something that they wanted workers to do. In exchange for that they negotiated health benefits or wages or something. I can guarantee for every thing that the union got they gave something up. Any time that an auto manufacturer did not like the terms that the union wanted they have always had the ability to close the door and stop making cars. The fact that they did not do that means they thought that in contract negotiations what they union asked for was acceptable in comparison to what the union gave up. In government unions they cannot strike so their contracts if not mutually agreed on are decided by an Arbitrator in arbitration and both sides have to take what the arbitrator gives. The auto manufacturers dont have to do that they can say no and close their doors.

I see everyone talking about the union taking pay cuts and benefit cuts etc. Go talk to the various unions whose employees work for American Airlines. AA was going bankrupt and the unions agreed to take big cuts. Some of the higher paid certified airline mechanics were taking 10 to 12 dollar an hour cuts. When the contracts were all signed and everyone had lost salary and benefits it came out in the news about upper AA management. AA was worried their managers might bolt and go to another airline because of their financial problems so they offered any upper level manager that stayed another year a bounus equal to 100 per cent of their salary. (these are the same managers who ran the company into bankruptcy) plus their normal benefits for staying another year. I fail to see how everyone is doing their part to keep the company afloat when union employees get cuts and management gets 100 per cent bonuses. Have you seen any member of management in any of the big 3 getting a pay cut or benefit cut except the CEO and that is so ridiculous as to be funny. The CEO is going to go down to 1 dollar a year salary. Lee Iococa did that and what he didnt mention was that he got how many million dollars in stocks as a bonus after the end of that first year. How do you live on 1.00 a year, of course if you were the CEO of home depot and you got kicked out of that job with a multimillion dollar golden parachute then you can probably live on one dollar a year. Which of the big 3 CEO is that ?


The unions all hate walmart because of their anti union stance but if you look at a lot of walmarts their hourly employees dont have insurance, they only work 38 hours a week or less so that they are not full time employees. They basically have no benefits. But everyone of their managers has full time employment, health insurance, stock options etc. Is that the kind of life you want for your children and grandchildren and your great grandchildren. Unless they are able to be managers they wont have health insurance, or benefits and they wont care about the big 3 because they wont make enough to buy a new car.



Also the last thing I am going to put in this post. I would have to look and see but I believe the extended warranty on my duramax is with an insurance company. It is not necessarily a warranty as it is an insurance plan. I dont think it is tied into GM. GM might own the insuance company that issues it but I would bet that is a different company and if it is an insurance plan that might come under different government regulations

I agree with you on the unions putting unreal stress on labor costs for the big 3. I really don't know how they lasted this long. The unions truly slaughtered their own money pig. The pendulum truly swung too far in the union's direction.


However, on the corp jets, one has to be realisitic. It is IMPOSSIBLE for today's corporate executives of companies as large and GM or Ford to conduct business in today's world WITHOUT corporate private jets. Sometimes these execs need to be in 3 cities thousands of miles apart in one day. These guys can't drive cars between meetings and can't rely on a travel agent with plane tickets. They need to be able to fly in a heartbeat anywhere, anytime.

look, all this corp jet stuff is just grandstanding by government officials on the bailout oversight committee to make the CEO's look bad. If you want to gripe about personal jets, Nancy Pelosi has her own private air force jet she flies around in wasting taxpayer dollars.

At least the money that CEOs use to fly their jets was earned through free enterprise, not taken from our paychecks to fly some blowhard senator around.

BTW: Ford has 7 and GM has 4 corp jets. GM has grounded their fleet in a symbolic effort to show they are slashing costs. Realistically, it might actually hurt them because their execs cannot respond to being somewhere immediately.

 

[WarrenF]

Unions are simply like Misletoe. We all love Misletoe, especially at this holiday season. We use it for decorations to make our homes and businesses pretty and festive. Misletoe, however lives on a live tree. It gets it nutrients and ability to groe by taping the tree and sucking all of what it needs to live right from the tree.

The inevitable outcome......they both die. Guess what, anyone can make any argument they wish about what the Unions and the Big Three have done or are not doing. The inevitable result is this....The Big three brought the Unions on themselves by not having good employee relations. The Unions keep pounding the worn out, tired old phrases. Unions cannot live without a host....they get their life from the company......and they suck it dry. Now they will both die.

Simply look at what happened to the steel industry in this nation.

 

[excelagator]

However, on the corp jets, one has to be realisitic. It is IMPOSSIBLE for today's corporate executives of companies as large and GM or Ford to conduct business in today's world WITHOUT corporate private jets. Sometimes these execs need to be in 3 cities thousands of miles apart in one day. These guys can't drive cars between meetings and can't rely on a travel agent with plane tickets. They need to be able to fly in a heartbeat anywhere, anytime.

BTW: Ford has 7 and GM has 4 corp jets. GM has grounded their fleet in a symbolic effort to show they are slashing costs. Realistically, it might actually hurt them because their execs cannot respond to being somewhere immediately.

Really? There are net meetings done through a T-1 line or a good DSL? The fuel cost and maintenance on a jet far out weighs any 1000 last minute. tickets. Ask any good regional salesman.

BTW, My father worked for a reality company in the 70s. They owned a French built jet helicopter for clients. 1 million dollars a year to maintain it just sitting on the ground! So just sitting cost money!

Dan

 

[PA hayseed]

I can't believe all the anti union sentiment on this thread. Now, I have been a union employee before, was a local union president, and currently work in a closed shop, where I am a fair share member (non union). I see no diffference between a group of people banding to gether to get better wages (unions), or a group of people banding together to get cheaper products or resources (businesses), or a group of people banding together to sell their product at a better price (opec, various farmers groups). This is a capitlaist society, even though the corruption of socialism is beginning to enter the mainstream of our society. Ffor me, my stance was formed along time ago by my grandfather. He had scars on his head, and he always told us they came from GM unionbusters back in the 50/60's. He retired from GM, and always sang GM's praises. He never owned a car that wasn't built by (as he called it) generous motors. Yes, the UAW workers get paid a decent wage, but I guess everyone would rather they made $12/hr, for what reason I cannot fathom. So, some american gets paid a decent wage while working for a compnay, can pay for their house and car(s), don't leech on the government for medical insurance or food stamps, and won't likely get any assistance from the government or the school if they try to get their child an education. This makes people angry. I guess we can go to socialism or communism where only the party officials live well, or go back to the company owned stores and houses, where you work for them and then pay them for what they let you use.

I recently bought a new 08 chevy 2500 cheaper than I bought my previous 1500 for. I can't help but think that it is a good time to buy a new truck. This truck came with heated windshield wiper fluid...on a truck. I thought it was stupid, until winter. If there is no warranty when or if they go bankrupt, well, then I guess I have to use my local junkyard to get parts.

 

[Builder]

I can't believe all the anti union sentiment on this thread. Now, I have been a union employee before, was a local union president, and currently work in a closed shop, where I am a fair share member (non union). I see no diffference between a group of people banding to gether to get better wages (unions), or a group of people banding together to get cheaper products or resources (businesses), or a group of people banding together to sell their product at a better price (opec, various farmers groups). This is a capitlaist society, even though the corruption of socialism is beginning to enter the mainstream of our society. Ffor me, my stance was formed along time ago by my grandfather. He had scars on his head, and he always told us they came from GM unionbusters back in the 50/60's. He retired from GM, and always sang GM's praises. He never owned a car that wasn't built by (as he called it) generous motors. Yes, the UAW workers get paid a decent wage, but I guess everyone would rather they made $12/hr, for what reason I cannot fathom. So, some american gets paid a decent wage while working for a compnay, can pay for their house and car(s), don't leech on the government for medical insurance or food stamps, and won't likely get any assistance from the government or the school if they try to get their child an education. This makes people angry. I guess we can go to socialism or communism where only the party officials live well, or go back to the company owned stores and houses, where you work for them and then pay them for what they let you use.

I recently bought a new 08 chevy 2500 cheaper than I bought my previous 1500 for. I can't help but think that it is a good time to buy a new truck. This truck came with heated windshield wiper fluid...on a truck. I thought it was stupid, until winter. If there is no warranty when or if they go bankrupt, well, then I guess I have to use my local junkyard to get parts.

I wouldn't suggest $12/hour, although that's about $3/hr less than what I pay a Carpenters apprentice to frame buildings that people live in. That's much harsher and more skilled work than a guy making $50-60/hr bolting a seat down in a Pontiac.

In regards to the UAW, I think it's all about the "extremes". Way back when, the unions were needed to get workers some form of protection & decent wages. Today, they've far outlived their usefullness and the pendulum has swung waaaaayyyy too far in their favor. The reason your grandfather calls GM "generous motors" is because they were generous to a fault, they were overly generous to their employees to the point of bankrutping the very company that employed their constituants

There must be a reason a Toyota plant in TN can have people standing in line to employ people with no union representation making lower wages and less benefits.

Why can't the Big 3 have the same thing? Why do they have to be expected to survive with assembly line workers making $90,000/yr doing mostly unskilled work and labot pools with employees not even working for close to a year making nearly full salary?

Where else in the world can a person make $60/hr with no skills and world class benefits outside the UAW or some of the other remaining strong unions?

 

[Dargo]

I can't believe all the anti union sentiment on this thread. Now, I have been a union employee before, was a local union president,....

That explains the view with blinders on. I've worked on both sides. Most unions now have outlived their usefulness and need to die a quick death. Just look what the once extremely powerful UMWA has done to union miners. Twenty five years ago there were twenty thousand UMWA workers in Indiana. Today there are zero yet there is more coal being produced there and surveys show the current miners are happier with their jobs than union miners ever were.

There is a Toyota plant right up the road from me. Job satisfaction is about as high as possible and the workers are paid a very fair wage along with great benefits. How can that be with no union? The UAW has hurt all of us with their greed and corruption. Taking down the domestic automakers has severely hurt our economy. Thus the UAW has me with their ways. They can't go away fast enough for me. They are nothing more than leaches who have killed their hosts.

 

[daBear]

"leaches who have killed their host." Perfectly stated Drago.

 

[WilliamBos]

That explains the view with blinders on. I've worked on both sides. Most unions now have outlived their usefulness and need to die a quick death. Just look what the once extremely powerful UMWA has done to union miners. Twenty five years ago there were twenty thousand UMWA workers in Indiana. Today there are zero yet there is more coal being produced there and surveys show the current miners are happier with their jobs than union miners ever were.

There is a Toyota plant right up the road from me. Job satisfaction is about as high as possible and the workers are paid a very fair wage along with great benefits. How can that be with no union? The UAW has hurt all of us with their greed and corruption. Taking down the domestic automakers has severely hurt our economy. Thus the UAW has me with their ways. They can't go away fast enough for me. They are nothing more than leaches who have killed their hosts.

I agree with that 100%. The Honda plant is only 20 minutes from me, and they are also paid well, just as Toyota, and no union.

If they go the bankruptcy route, waving good bye to the union would be the best thing that would ever happen to the employees, and the auto makers. This also includes the CAW.

 

[BungeeII]

I wouldn't suggest $12/hour, although that's about $3/hr less than what I pay a Carpenters apprentice to frame buildings that people live in. That's much harsher and more skilled work than a guy making $50-60/hr bolting a seat down in a Pontiac.

Rough framing much harsher work? Don't be so sure.
$50-60 per hour? No such person.

With that said...

The relationship the unions have had with the employers has been far too adversarial for far too long. Couple that with the US's crazy tax-structure and "free" trade policies and it's easy to why we're in such dire straits as a nation.

 

[mjarrels]

Odd... I have not seen a TV commerical for any big 3 products in months now. Advertize budget must have dryed up?

mark

 

[JimMorrissey]

Just bought a '08 Silverado 1/2 ton. Love it.....Those who say GM makes junk is not speaking from point of experience. GM and Chevy in particular will not go away, bankruptcy or not. Nice rigs. I'd snag one now.....prices are awesome.

Not sure about the warranty situation as I'm not a corporate lawyer. Will it definitely be void if GM files for bankruptcy? I have read the warranties will be honored. Who knows.

 

[charliepff]

Originally Posted by Builder View Post
However, on the corp jets, one has to be realisitic. It is IMPOSSIBLE for today's corporate executives of companies as large and GM or Ford to conduct business in today's world WITHOUT corporate private jets. Sometimes these execs need to be in 3 cities thousands of miles apart in one day. These guys can't drive cars between meetings and can't rely on a travel agent with plane tickets. They need to be able to fly in a heartbeat anywhere, anytime.

BTW: Ford has 7 and GM has 4 corp jets. GM has grounded their fleet in a symbolic effort to show they are slashing costs. Realistically, it might actually hurt them because their execs cannot respond to being somewhere immediately.

This is definitely part of the problem. I refuse to blame the unions. There is no reason for the workers not to unite to ask for better work conditions and pay. How about the fact of the ridiculous salaries the CEO and higher up's make. I am sorry if I offend anyone but there is no reason for a hundred and fifty thousand a year salary. With that being a low number. I do not understand how someone is worth that much money. A doctor I could buy into that. A CEO of an auto manufacturer; no. A sports star, definitely not. Especially since they were not smart enough to see this coming. I am sure somewhere out there that financial planners seen this coming and it could have been avoided. Ok I will stop rambling now about high salaries.

 

[WilliamBos]

This is definitely part of the problem. I refuse to blame the unions. There is no reason for the workers not to unite to ask for better work conditions and pay. How about the fact of the ridiculous salaries the CEO and higher up's make. I am sorry if I offend anyone but there is no reason for a hundred and fifty thousand a year salary. With that being a low number. I do not understand how someone is worth that much money. A doctor I could buy into that. A CEO of an auto manufacturer; no. A sports star, definitely not. Especially since they were not smart enough to see this coming. I am sure somewhere out there that financial planners seen this coming and it could have been avoided. Ok I will stop rambling now about high salaries.

I disagree. Those salaries are nuts. $71 an hour to build vehicles?? The techs who fix them do not make that, so why should the people who build them? The guys working at Honda and others only make half that, and they are happy. I do agree that the salaries they pay from top to bottom need an over haul, and the greedy unions have no place with the way things are nowadays.

 

[Dargo]

I refuse to blame the unions.

Now that is humorous and clearly uninformed. If you can't see how the unions have caused the fall of the domestic automakers I assume you don't have a television, radio or internet information available to you. I guess that'd make you one of the "one percenters". Only about 1 percent of the people feel that the UAW has not been the single largest reason for the collapse of the auto manufacturers. My personal opinion is that "one percent" of the people surveyed who don't feel that the UAW is at fault are either complete union Lemmings or Union bosses who about to have to come down to the real world.

The unfortunate thing is that the corrupt, stupid and unreasonable UAW is about to cause many past autoworkers to lose their pensions and life's savings because of their total and blind greed. I'm sure there are plenty of retired UAW workers who put in years of hard and dedicated work who are about to lose everything because of stupidity and greed in the current and recent past UAW leadership.

 

[Mac624]

If I look at GM, they are not all around the world with the Pontiac Chevis or whatever they offering in the US.

They own Vauxhall and Opel, which are the same vehicles, part of tem made in Germany. Saab in Sweden, which was known for their excellent cars. Daewoo, which is named Chevrolet, now

Chevrolet Deutschland is made in Poland (FSO) and Korea (Daewoo)

The Saturn side shows the Opel/Vauxhall Astra, Opel Insignia and Opel Speedster, the SUV are Dawoo.

Saturn | New 2009 Cars, SUVs, & Crossover Vehicles

I donｴt know an european carbrand, which is supported by the Government. They are talking about subsidies for Opel, cause they have done Developemnt for the mothercompany GM and not have been paid.

Compared to Germany cars in the US are awfully cheap and with the low fuelprices it is hard to understand, why GM, Ford and Chrysler are not able to sell their cars.

In Germany Chrysler is the most popular US brand and if You see a GM related Van or PU it mostly has gasinstallation for running LPG.

 

[Builder]

This is definitely part of the problem. I refuse to blame the unions. There is no reason for the workers not to unite to ask for better work conditions and pay. How about the fact of the ridiculous salaries the CEO and higher up's make. I am sorry if I offend anyone but there is no reason for a hundred and fifty thousand a year salary. With that being a low number. I do not understand how someone is worth that much money. A doctor I could buy into that. A CEO of an auto manufacturer; no. A sports star, definitely not. Especially since they were not smart enough to see this coming. I am sure somewhere out there that financial planners seen this coming and it could have been avoided. Ok I will stop rambling now about high salaries.

Then you'll have to include all the salaries of almost all big corp CEO's. It's not only the Big 3 that have ridiculous CEO salaries.

 

[Builder]

I disagree. Those salaries are nuts. $71 an hour to build vehicles?? The techs who fix them do not make that, so why should the people who build them? The guys working at Honda and others only make half that, and they are happy. I do agree that the salaries they pay from top to bottom need an over haul, and the greedy unions have no place with the way things are nowadays.

Correct. Just look at our now non existant steel industry. The unions did the steel industry in back in the 70's & 80's. I live in Pennsylvania and can remember the days of Bethlehem Steel, Lukens steel & USX right in my area. Now they're all gone forever. Main reason was unions.

 

[charliepff]

I do not blame the unions. I do blame the fact that the UAW is not regulated. If no one regulates the Auto Makers Union why should they stop asking for higher salaries. I do agree the assemblers are making a ridiculous salary, but who is stopping them from getting it. Now if it was a trade such as a Lineman or Pipe Welder who has to be out in the elements and so on I could see higher salaries on the conditions they brave and the skills they require for there fields. I should have elaborated when I said I do not blame the unions. Everyone needs some boundaries. Do I blame the CEO's from all the major corporations; certainly. There is no reason for there high salary and private jets. They do not need to travel all over for conferences and similar adventures. I would love to see there bills for a month of perks they use the companies money on. Part of the problem is the refuse to make cuts. They could have been cutting the fat a while ago but they refuse to. Like I said before you also can not tell me alot of these higher ups did not see this coming.

 

[Builder]

I do not blame the unions. I do blame the fact that the UAW is not regulated. If no one regulates the Auto Makers Union why should they stop asking for higher salaries. I do agree the assemblers are making a ridiculous salary, but who is stopping them from getting it.

It's called a UAW STRIKE. When your labor force is paid more than any labor force in the world, but still continues as recently as 3 years ago to strike for yet higher pay, less work and more benefits, they have their employer in a hopeless situation.

Look at other members of the Dow Jones industrials. They have overpaid CEOs and fleets of private jets, yet most aren't facing bankruptcy. The common denominators are that the gov't overegulates the auto industry and they are hog tied by the UAW, the most powerful union ever in the world.

I agree they're overpaid, but the unions & the gov't regulations put the nail in the coffin before CEO salaries.