welding

[fattyfat1]

the UA is what certifies you to section ix. this is your testing facility, this is your testing representative. once you pass this test, you are certified to section ix code. show me in section ix where a 6g stick weld is done downhill? please do it by pm so these people don't have to read it.none of these people here care about asme code, they want to know what welder will work best. so far you have danced around my question to you in my last post about why and are missing the point. as far as doing mt, pt, ut, and rt, good for you, you can run a magnet, an ultrasonic tester, and crank a handle on a camera. anyone with 1200$ can be a cwi, i know one who works for INTEL that did car upholstery before he inspected welds. never laid a bead in his life. at least you can weld, otherwise you have no credibility. we don't do much gas piping here. pulp and paper, refineries, nuclear, powerplants, hydroelectric, semiconductor, just about EVERYTHING but nat.gas. so don't think you are teaching me anything. you obviously specialize in a small niche of the piping industry, not taking into consideration that 99% of the piping out there is not gas pipe. 99% of pipe today is pre-fabbed and mig welded to minimize costly field welds. you are living in a dream world if you think otherwise.

 

[thingy]

One other thing fattyfat,the code you all are certified to lets you certify up or down as well,,you just need a procedure thats been qualified,,agree,most all powerplant,chemical plant type work is up,,,but to code they could weld it down if they qualified procedures and of course welders,,,in other words,if a company for some reason wanted some sch 80 a106 welded down,,according to code they could,,if they did what the code said in making that legal. U.A. ain't got nothing to do with it,its what the customer wants,,if pipefitters couldn't handle it,,they would get somebody who could.
And there ain't nothing wrong with the guy buying a mig,,probably work out well,,but I've already stated why my choice would be for a beginner to get a descent dc stick welder,,he'll just have to make up his own mind,,he's probably got way more than enough advise now.
And you don't gotta weld no 10,000 rods or what ever you said to be able to fix a crack in his brushog,,,I bet I could have him running a pretty good bead,in flat postion in an hour,and tell him all he needs to know about setting his machine up in 2 min. thingy

 

[thingy]

Get you a section IX and read it,might do you some good,,[hint] look under essental variables.
I used to be a young inspector once myself,,but no need to be so hostle when somebody is trying to teach you something,,,thingy

 

[fattyfat1]

thingy, we have strayed WWAAYY of topic here! i will look up essential variables when i get to work in the morning, for the sake of this discussion. i admit, i am fairly new to the cwi thing, my biggest problem is code books! i never thought my b.a. would help me in the real world, but it taught me how to find what i need in a book. what i do have is good eyes, and a ton of real world experience in the piping industry. to me this is the most important atribute of a cwi. i will always be able to find the code i am looking for, just not fast w/ a customer breathing down my neck, pressuring me to prove why the weld got rejected. i am a pipefitter/welder first and foremost, my company decided i needed snt-tc-1a because the industry needs inspectors as bad as it needs welders. so whaddaya say, how about we agree to disagree. what i do know is............. i don't know squat about tractors. thats why i come here. three in three years to get it right. ha ha right! how bout we talk about them for awhile....

 

[thingy]

Alright!,,the man is actually calmed down a little,,yes,,we can agree to disagree,,but,,we was both right you know,,he'll be just as happy I bet,which ever way he chooses,,,nice to cyber meet you,,,your company is lucky to have you working for them! thingy

 

[Egon]

Tractors; okay, I have a B7100 Kubota with a loader.

The first year I used it for serious digging in rocks and clay I broke almost every factory weld on it. The fellow who fixed it used a stick and non of his welds have broken or broken beside the weld.

 

[Sully2]

this,,,its alot harder to repair a weld than do it right the first time,and some welds if they fail can lead to somebody dying.But yeah,get some mexicans who can only flat weld with a mig and pay them 7 bucks an hour and you might save a few bucks in the short term,,,thinking like that works on the production line but not on pressure piping and critical welds..thingy

Who said anything about $7 an HOUR "Mexicans"??? And around HERE..companys will pay MORE $$ per hour for a top notch man that can MIG as compared to stick only!!!

 

[Sully2]

Well since this is turning into a stick vs wire welding rant I guess I will throw in my humble opinion. TEACH, get as much MIG welder as you can afford. Get a gas setup right away if you can afford it. Forget about a stick welder they are just too hard to use. I have had a Dayton 230 AC/180 DC welder for about 25 years maybe 30. I have patched and fabricated many things with it and my welds never break even though they are ugly but it is just too hard to use. I don't weld often enough to stay in practice. Usually at the end of the project I will start laying down some decent welds.
So I was reworking my FEL bucket and I got fed up with my stick welder and went out and bought a Miller 251 with a 75/25% CO2 Argon gas setup. I figured that after 25 years it was time for an upgrade. I couldn't believe how easy it was to use. No more scratching, no more stuck welding rods, no more trapped pools of slag, no chipping and a 33 pound spool of wire seems to last forever. After 15 minutes of practice I was laying down the best welds of my life. I may never use my stick welder again and I have about 50 pounds of rods left. To illustrate how easy it is to learn to weld with a MIG I am going to attach 4 pictures of my daughters first welds with the Miller 251. She had never welded or done any metal work before and she only had about 20 minutes of lessons before she did these welds.
Marshall
P.S. About a day after I bought my MIG I went to the local scrap yard to look for welding project fodder and I found a whole pallet of welding wire. It had been scrapped by a local welding shop for some reason but it looked usable. I bought about 330 pounds for 18 cents a pound. All of the wire is for mild steel. The wire is .035 and .045. Some is bare wire and some is dual shield wire. Unfortunately there wasn't any flux core wire that I could run without gas.
When my kids clean out my shop after I die they will wonder why I bought so much welding wire because I don't think that I will ever use it all. I have only used about 10 pounds so far.

I couldnt agree more! Every weld Ive made at school with EITHER the stick machines or the MIG setup...I take a 3 pounder to and beat **** out of it to see if its going to "hold". They all have ( thank the lord..lol) but the MIG welds LOOK 300% better..and Im a TOTAL newbie to useing MIG and have only played with my own little welder using FC.

A new guy ON A BUDGET "might" be better off WITH an AC/DC stick welder..? They certainly are far cheaper than even a decent quality MIG outfit ( even using FC wire)..but the idea than stick is the "pot of gold at the end of the rainbow" is utter BS ..IMHO. Might be more versatile??..Im not experienced enough to qualify that one way or the other..but to base its versatility on the idea that it can burn thru all the old paint...grease...rust...etc..etc..?? YA AINT SUPPOSE TO DO THAT WITH ANY WELDER. PREP is the name of the game.

After having my "paws" for 3 weeks on a 250 amp stick welder...and then switching to a large MIG welder...IF / And/ or When I feel I need a larger machine that my own little one....I'll just have a diet of hot dogs for awhile because I'll spend my "coin" on a top quality MIG welder.

 

[fattyfat1]

Get you a section IX and read it,might do you some good,,[hint] look under essental variables.
I used to be a young inspector once myself,,but no need to be so hostle when somebody is trying to teach you something,,,thingy

for the record, section ix, b31.3 pg. 21 table qw-253 welding variables procedure spec. states uphill or downhill is acceptable. i stand corrected! darn pipeliners doing things backwards anyways. sheesh!

 

[thingy]

Sully,if you can stick weld good,you will have no trouble picking up mig,,you have already said it don't work the other way around,,and,its like in most schools who teach welding,well at least in the older days,,they started you out on oxy/act welding,,cause that process is welding in its rawest form,,if you can oxy/act weld,you can learn all the rest.Those 7 dollar an hour mexican type welders,are not welders,[there is also other races in there as well,who are not welders either],you have just described how it don't take much skill to mig weld something,,whats his name with his daughter showed it pretty good to,,,there are wire burners and there are welders.

But,,this side of argument has nothing to do with the subject,,its not a mig verses stick or verses tig,,,the guy is a beginner,,he wants to know what kinda machine he should get,,I'm assuming he knows next to nothing about welding,,,many people told him to get a mig,many told him to get a stick,,some even suggested tig,,its now up to him,,you and others have said why you think he should get a mig,me and others have said why we think he should get a stick,,,ain't much else to add here I don't think.
I can weld pipe in postion with either one,[used to be pretty good if I do say so myself],I have a stick welder,I don't have a mig,don't need a mig,if I needed one,I would have one,,,you have a mig,cause you can't stick weld,,good for you,it works for you,you don't need a stick machine,,,what else is there to say here?
thingy

 

[Birdhunter1]

I've known several people that didn't know you could weld with an oxy-acetylene torch. That's how my high school teacher taught us first... oxy-acetylene, then an arc welder then later the mig. He said he could teach anyone to mig weld, the other's are more difficult and take more practice.

 

[thingy]

Fattyfat,,yeah,,,them code books,,too many of them,to many pages,,but 80 percent of whats in them people like me and you don't even need,,we just need to be able to sort through all them pages and find that one paragraph that we do need,,,,but you won't see much downhill other than pipeline,,even on pipelines,you'll get some prefabricted spool pieces in that may have been rooted with tig and out with subarc,,,pipeline stick welding is a whole nother world,,since I've been inspecting,I've mainly just worked in powerplants and chemical plants,refinorarys,etc,,,only inspected on 3-4 pipeline jobs,,they didn't want to pay enough,or maybe I didn't know the right person,,,thingy

 

[Sully2]

.....

But,,this side of argument has nothing to do with the subject,,its not a mig verses stick or verses tig,,,the guy is a beginner,,he wants to know what kinda machine he should get,,I'm assuming he knows next to nothing about welding,,,many people told him to get a mig,many told him to get a stick,,some even suggested tig,,its now up to him,,you and others have said why you think he should get a mig,me and others have said why we think he should get a stick,,,ain't much else to add here I don't think.
I can weld pipe in postion with either one,[used to be pretty good if I do say so myself],I have a stick welder,I don't have a mig,don't need a mig,if I needed one,I would have one,,,you have a mig,cause you can't stick weld,,good for you,it works for you,you don't need a stick machine,,,what else is there to say here?
thingy

NOOOOO...Read back and you'll see where "I SAID" he should buy a stick welder..preferable an AC/DC model..if for not other reason than pure economics! ( Remember..hes got a tight budget). It will do most everything he might need and will last as long as he does...BUT...that I could see that "on down the road" be might ogo to a MIG..because of its ease and how nice they can weld!

Me personally..I can buy a Stickmate for about 1/2 what I paid for an HH140..and LOTS LESS than say an Ironman 210

 

[thingy]

OK Sully,didn't remember that,,,,but will say if he does as you recommend he probably won't need to get a mig,unless he's going to be welding sheet metal. All he needs to do is practice.
If he gets a dc stick machine,,he needs to get him some 6010 rods,welding supply place will have them,,would get a small pack,[think its 5 lbs?] of e-6010 in 3/32 and one 1/8 pack,,,if your machine has a selector choose dc,,make sure your stinger one[the one with rod holder] is hooked to dcep,,+ sign,,,,get you some steel,,1/4 inch or thicker,,grind a spot for ground,,turn your machine to about 90-100 amps,[the hotter its set at,the easier it is to start your rod,thats the hard part when stick welding],[well,,],,you can turn it down as you get the hang of it,,and scratch the steel with the rod [3/32 ]tip,,your get the arc started that way,,trick is to keep it going,,you'll see a melted puddle,thats the weld,,than you just got to move,,takes practice,,a stick class would really help out,,or somebody you can at least show you how to get it going,,,some people pick up on it fast,some don't,,I use a shade 9 lens and a 2.5 cheater lens cause my eyes are shot,,but you can wear reading glasses under hood,[this is if you wear glasses],I'd get a flip type hood if you wear glasses or use a cheater,,you can flip the dark shade up and grind or brush with out safety glasses this way,,,once you get going a 3/32 runs about 90 amps,,a 1/8 runs about 110 amps or so,,depends on your machine,,the dial setting might not match up exactlly to real amps,,,thats about all you need to know to get started,,,thingy

 

[sandman2234]

I like the part mentioned that if you can stick weld, you can run a mig. The other one about gas welding and tig is so true! O/A was my first night at class and then on to the Tig.
All in all, I would buy the AC/DC machine for a first one.
David from jax

 

[gemini5362]

I have said and I continue to agree with the side that reccomends he get a stick welder. I feel that he should do that strictly for economic reasons. I have used a mig to make farm type items. I built a pair of 5 foot ramps that are 12 inches wide and load my 6000 pound tractor on them all the time. I used a 175 amp mig for that and had no problem. I have never had one of my mig welds break. The down side is that a decent Mig that will weld 1/4 inch or thicker and be able to get actual penetration is going to eat up the greater part of 1000.00 you can get a pretty good stick machine for that. Also you can find great deals on used stick machines. I have not seen too many good buys on used migs.

One thing no one mentioned too much is welding helmets. You can get a pretty decent arc activated helmet at Harbor Freight for under 50.00 For a new welder and not one of you experienced guys. It is a lot easier to just look through a slightly shaded lens, put your rod where you want it being able to see the whole time and then when the arc starts the helmet turns dark. That is much better than putting on the hood, get your rod ready, flip your head(doesnt that hurt your neck after a while) and get the hood down then being blind until the arc starts.

 

[Tom_Veatch]

I certainly agree with the auto-darkening helmet. I have the 50$ HF example and am very pleased with it. I also have a Miller XLix auto-dark that was pushing 4x as much money. Can't see that the Miller is anywhere near worth the extra $'s.

As far as the welder type is concerned, unless there's going to be considerable light gauge stuff, say less than 1/8", stick is by far the most economical way to go - but IMHO, an AC/DC stick unit is much more desirable than a straight AC and worth the extra cost.

 

[montejw]

for the record, section ix, b31.3 pg. 21 table qw-253 welding variables procedure spec. states uphill or downhill is acceptable. i stand corrected! darn pipeliners doing things backwards anyways. sheesh!

I've been looking at welders for awhile now and see several that have a "downhill pipe" setting, usually engine drive units. You guys were starting to make me wonder what Lincoln and Miller were up to.

Monte
(galbraith, acfl, blanchard, etc.)

 

[BTDT]

Here are a couple of welders I have that I use. One is an old Sears crackerbox ac unit (free from step dad) Pics 19 & 20, and an old Lincoln 200 dc unit with Continental Red Seal engine. The crackerbox unit is in an old shed near my welding table, so if I can build it on my table I use it. The Lincoln is sitting on an old trailer (project for later) that I pull around on the property.

 

[thingy]

Monte,never seen a welder that had written on it,downhill,,,but that don't mean everything,,,can't see how having it wrote on anything would help,,different people run different amps,and it would change depending on what sized rod or wire you was using,,, Downhill is just a direction used on vertical position,,instead of starting at bottom and welding up,,in downhill you start at top and weld down. Yeah,generally a higher heat is used,,you generally carry less metal and travel faster as well,,real good for thin stuff,,,but if you have the technique down you can weld thicker stuff with it as well,and make just as good a weld. Two different worlds when it comes to pipe welding though,,,up,,powerplants,,down,pipelines.
Now its different than under water welding,,thats where somebody holds a cup of water over your head while you weld,,,,man I'm funny,,,thingy