Lucky to be ALIVE!!!

[aczlan]

I understand what CM is trying to say,
Current needs a "return" path to ground, but to safely do so, it also needs a ( without getting to technical ) "load" in it's path.
Without this load ( light, starter, radio etc, etc ) it is considered a short to ground,
depending on the amperage, this short to grnd can cause considerable damage.
Again, my take on this is the solenoid "shorted" closed, this is probably why the starter still spined,
when it was put in neutral, when Gary hit the solenoid again, it dislodged the internal short and opened the solenoid.

I agree 100%. My only disagreement is with CM calling a short across a solenoid to a load a short to ground.
If it goes directly to ground (ie: the wrench on the positive terminal hitting the engine block) it is a short to ground.
If it goes from positive to ground via a load (like Gary had happen when he hit both terminals with the wrench) it is a short, but it would not be considered a short to ground because it goes to ground through a load.

Aaron Z

 

[Garycw]

Good morning Gary,
how ya feeling this morning, whats the weather like down that way.

I'm feeling better physically. The weather is cold for SW ohio 39 last night w/hi of 50 today. Atleast it's sunny and looks to be a pretty day from what I could see. I go for a 175 mi R/T ride Tuesday to Dr's to have bandage removed and check with surgen's PA. If all well hopefully last visit. Time may be the cure going forward.

 

[TomSeller]

The fuel cut off knob is spring loaded. You pull it out and hold till engine dies. If you release before completely stopped it springs back and engine continues to run. It's Always in run position until you pull it and hold it. When released. It automatically goes back to run.

This is a very unsafe configuration, particularly if it starts without the key. On the old time tractors that I have, the fuel cutoff stays cut off until you move it back. I would get a safe, modern name brand tractor when you are able and back up and farming. Good luck.

 

[skyhook]

Good point, Tom, mine is the same...you pull it and it stay's shut off,
you have to push it back in manually, I wonder if someone added a spring to it at the pump.

 

[skyhook]

double post

 

[aczlan]

This is a very unsafe configuration, particularly if it starts without the key. On the old time tractors that I have, the fuel cutoff stays cut off until you move it back. I would get a safe, modern name brand tractor when you are able and back up and farming. Good luck.

If the tractor starts without a key, that needs to be fixed, but otherwise, its exactly how a "modern" tractor shuts off except they use a solenoid to shut the fuel off for a few seconds after you turn the key off.
Don't believe me? Watch the fuel shutoff solenoid when you turn the key off.

Aaron Z

 

[jlgurr]

Took me two days to wade through this....

Gary, hate to hear of your accident but thankful we are hearing from you and not one of your heirs.

Regarding the rest of the story and debate .... OMG!!!

Sent from my iPhone using TractorByNet

 

[Garycw]

I think I've about decided to sell this tractor. I'm not sure if can look at it without reliving the accident, or ever feel comfortable on it anyway.
I will check the fuel shut off knob and see if it will lock if you pull and twist or something?? I'd only had it a cpl weeks and only used it a cpl times. I do agree though it should just stay out when pulled. I've came to the conclusion it's just a dangerous design , even its the only one I have with a ROPS on it. I bought it cheap and will make a good profit selling it at a fair to low price. I'm going to need the $ for medical it seems and not a good deal after all. It was a $9k tractor and in like new cond. I paid $1k for it with a 5' bush hog that needs a half shaft.
I didn't really need it, just liked the 4wd and 24spd set up.

 

[TomSeller]

If the tractor starts without a key, that needs to be fixed, but otherwise, its exactly how a "modern" tractor shuts off except they use a solenoid to shut the fuel off for a few seconds after you turn the key off.
Don't believe me? Watch the fuel shutoff solenoid when you turn the key off.

Aaron Z

Gary said two things related to this. First, the tractor runs if you turn off the key. Second, if he does not hold the fuel shut oft long enough, the engine starts back up. Sounds like there is not an electrical shutoff and the engine will start on compression.

 

[aczlan]

Gary said two things related to this. First, the tractor runs if you turn off the key. Second, if he does not hold the fuel shut oft long enough, the engine starts back up. Sounds like there is not an electrical shutoff and the engine will start on compression.

I am very familiar with the system as we have a 2003ish B7500 that works the same way.
If you release the fuel shutoff before the engine has stopped spinning, it will start back up.
The key being on does not make any difference to the engine other than enabling/disabling charging.

Aaron Z

 

[DarkBlack]

You show me a completed circuit of any kind that doesn't return to a ground point from a hot 12volt wire.
You are so arrogant as to think you know what my interest is in this thread, or any place else for that matter?! Are you going to start talking about other things that you know nothing about, like ignore lists? Too wordy for you? Attention span overloaded? Pathetic. I'm not debating anyone, just answering questions directed my way. There is nothing technically incorrect about anything I've said, nor anything I didn't understand. I asked the OP to verify his solenoid was acting up prior to the incident to save reading through waste of time posts like yours, to get to the facts as the OP stated them.

"Have you no sense of decency, sir?'
Joseph N. Walsh

The true answer is he is an argumentative poster, always choosing be a devils advocate. I'm sure he has ended up on many other members ignore list. If you want to waste your time go through his post history.

Let me try to explain: Your self-righteousness offends a lot of people. Of course accidents are preventable. That's not the point. This is not the time or place to insult someone, saying they don't have "the bare minimum of common sense" after they've had a serious life-threatening accident. That is offensive. In addition you wish ("should get" -how else to read?) that other are injured, killed or maimed. That too is offensive. Let me quote you again:"Ha
ve you no sense of decency?"

Coyote, I suggest you give it a break...

The above posts were directed at you...just on this single thread alone. Your obvious directionless aggression vs knowledge is pretty sad.

 

[TomSeller]

The above posts were directed at you...just on this single thread alone. Your obvious directionless aggression vs knowledge is pretty sad.

It might help to include the positive posts in this thread as well if the intent is for a proper reflection of CM. I certainly would not say his posts are directionless or question his knowledge. I will agree he doesn't mince words.

 

[DarkBlack]

It might help to include the positive posts in this thread about CM as well. I certainly would not say his posts are directionless or question his knowledge. I will agree he doesn't mince words.

I would certainly question his knowledge. If you know electrical as I do, you would see clear as day, he doesn't know what he speaks of.
I don't mind at all, someone who's not an expert. Doing so while arrogantly and wrongly trying to control the conversation ( thread in the case) Is just plain wrong. He's had days-weeks? to keep posting, and researching, and keep changing his 'view'.
I for one, will not respect a poster who plays that game. I see others don't like it either.

 

[Garycw]

Let's just say everyone's correct with different terminology. Moral of the story NEVER do any work around a starter with battery hooked up. Especially if tired and 98-99% sure it's in neutral. This accident ( as bad as it was) could have much , much worse in so many ways.
PLEASE. Everyone be careful. Looking back, I've gotten away with a lot of potential accidents. Working under tractor lifted bush hogs, not chalked very well, getting on/off running tractors, borderline inclines etc. NO MORE!! I hope no one learns better safety the way I have.
I will be checking all this wiring when I'm able. Battery disconnected, in neutral, brakes locked on and wheels chocked. Yea it takes longer, but not as long as my 6 mo- 1 yr full recovery.?Besides the pain in my legs & hip, my toes and inside of one knee are still numb, w/ no feeling at all.

 

[DarkBlack]

Moral of the story NEVER do any work around a starter with battery hooked up. Especially if tired and 98-99% sure it's in neutral. This accident ( as bad as it was) could have much , much worse in so many ways.
PLEASE. Everyone be careful. Looking back, I've gotten away with a lot of potential accidents. Working under tractor lifted bush hogs, not chalked very well, getting on/off running tractors, borderline inclines etc. NO MORE!! I hope no one learns better safety the way I have.
I will be checking all this wiring when I'm able. Battery disconnected, in neutral, brakes locked on and wheels chocked. Yea it takes longer, but not as long as my 6 mo- 1 yr full recovery.?Besides the pain in my legs & hip, my toes and inside of one knee are still numb, w/ no feeling at all.

HereHere! As the thread says... You are lucky to be alive. Alive to not repeat! :drink:

 

[TomSeller]

Let's just say everyone's correct with different terminology. Moral of the story NEVER do any work around a starter with battery hooked up.

Gary, you are tight on both of these subjects. Lots of great diagnosis with " different terminology" and a you provided a great reminder and learning experience.

 

[k0ua]

Gary I keep checking back to see how you are doing. Are you continuing to improve? I know it may be a long road, and I wish you all the best.

 

[Coyote machine]

I would certainly question his knowledge. If you know electrical as I do, you would see clear as day, he doesn't know what he speaks of.
I don't mind at all, someone who's not an expert. Doing so while arrogantly and wrongly trying to control the conversation ( thread in the case) Is just plain wrong. He's had days-weeks? to keep posting, and researching, and keep changing his 'view'.
I for one, will not respect a poster who plays that game. I see others don't like it either.

It's more than clear that YOU question my knowledge. You know electrical?! What electrical? Practical, theoretical? Professional? You've avoided every question about complete circuits I've asked. Is that because you don't have an answer to something actually on topic that isn't about me?!:confused3:
You say I don't know what I speak of? Any yet YOU are the ONLY one trying to prove your non point of the supposed others who don't like 'it' either. What 'it'? That I've been researching, and changing my viewpoint? Absurd! I've done zero research other than when I said I would look into shorting to ground as to various possible meanings.
You on the other hand seem he$& bent trying to prove that I'm on everyone's ignore list, and when that was clearly disproved you searched for every rail against me, including a request from Roy Jackson that I responded to saying I would back out of the thread so long as others like you did too. I stopped posting but you and others kept referring to things I said, etc., which compelled me to set the record straight.

On the subject of shorting to ground, which some; you in particular, seem to have an issue with the term's meaning, here is what I found, (but didn't post until now precisely because I wanted to move on and stop beating it to death over and over).

short to ground, short to positive, short to another wire > Kurzschluss gegen Masse

To cut down the word number for you, the question in Google is: "short to ground, short to positive, short to another wire".

The answer is:

Explanation: Kudoz answered some, the second link gives a good definition.

The full verbiage in English would read something like:

a short-circuit to ground meaning that the wire carrying the signal or power is now touching the wire connected to ground.

Selected response from:

jccantrell
United States
Local time: 16:41
END of cut/paste of question/answer.

So one last time, hot wire, carrying power, SHORTED to wire, by wrench, which ends at ground, (frame, block, chassis, of tractor). Get it?! No, well I can't make you understand what you're incapable, seemingly, of understanding, based on your inability to accept that 'my' chosen terms are valid and correct.

And to not seem insensitive: have a nice day!

 

[aczlan]

So one last time, hot wire, carrying power, SHORTED to wire, by wrench, which ends at ground, (frame, block, chassis, of tractor). Get it?! No, well I can't make you understand what you're incapable, seemingly, of understanding, based on your inability to accept that 'my' chosen terms are valid and correct.
And to not seem insensitive: have a nice day!

From the link in one of the answers you linked:

Plusschluss - short to (battery) voltage
As opposed to Kurzschluss an Masse, short to ground

Showing that in German, shorting across a solenoid is different than shorting from positive directly to ground without a load in the middle.

Aaron Z

 

[skyhook]

shorting across a solenoid is different than shorting from positive directly to ground without a load in the middle.

Aaron Z

Correct. The term, "shorting the solenoid" could also be better said by saying,
creating a "loop" or "bridging" the solenoid, but the term "short" is more often used.
Perhaps this is why it does get confusing at times, since in actuality, the solenoid is not "shorted" at all. Until you throw a "ground" loop in there, via a wrench etc.

I'm sure Gary is well aware of this in theory, after all, he did attempt to start his machine via the starter,
with a wrench, and I'm sure many of us "mechanically inclined" members have. I know I have.