Electric Cars: Chev Bolt seems to be the first practical one.

[MossRoad]

Interesting! "The W-15 comes equipped with an external 7.2 kw power outlet providing up to 30 amps directly from the vehicle battery pack." There's the inverter solution recently discussed here.

"Chassis Assembly Plant
940 South Rt. 32
Union City, IN 47390"

Hey MossRoad - is that close enough to go for a looksee?

Added: Google search indicates that plant was used to put RV coachwork on Chevrolet chassises (chassix?) until recently.

That's right on the way to Nowhere, OH!! Yikes. About as rural as you can get in Indiana. Google it and look at the cornfields. 3 hour and change drive from here.

 

[California]

Out of curiosity, are the bottom cushions of the back seats intended to flip forward and up to fill in this gap?
I know that on my Volvos they had that gap unless you flipped the bottom of seat forward.

Every station wagon and SUV I've owned had a fold-forward rear seat cushion. (Then rear seatbacks that folded forward to meet that folded cushion).

I saw these Bolt seats had a full 'skirt' to the floor like a sedan with no place for a hinge. I asked and the sales rep verified that the bases are fixed, only the seatbacks fold.

 

[aczlan]

Every station wagon and SUV I've owned had a fold-forward rear seat cushion. (Then rear seatbacks that folded forward to meet that folded cushion).
I saw these Bolt seats had a full 'skirt' to the floor like a sedan with no place for a hinge. I asked and the sales rep verified that the bases are fixed, only the seatbacks fold.

That is weird.

Aaron Z

 

[houstonscott]

Anyone familiar with a MB C350e.

 

[Egon]

Anyone familiar with a MB C350e.

Nope.

 

[aeblank]

Interesting thread. I actually read it all.....

I'm an engineer, and an electric car intrigues me. Part of me wants one, but they're just "not there", IMO.

I can get a honda accord cvt that gets 45+mpg. The payoff for a hybrid sure isn't there. I sure can't see that electric is either. It has to be subsidized, which pretty obviously shows that the economics aren't there. Its interesting that the economics are there for some and not others, as if the prices are any different.

The maintenance free.......boy, I dunno about that either. I have a Civic with 173,xxx on it. I have hardly done jack to that car. Sure, I've done the front brakes....ONCE. An electric has a braking system too, even if they're used less. How much less than 80K+ do you want? I've done rear shocks, but electrics have those too. There's an awful lot of car that *isn't* the engine that needs maintenance eventually.

Regen braking....Actually, hydraulics are a *great* solution. To a degree, a flywheel or PTO mounted pump/motor. It pressurizes to a tank, then releases back through the motor. Busses, garbage trucks, UPS, Fedex etc. are the biggest gains. To this point, it's entertaining to put all this time/money/effort into such small gains. So I can get 50 in my prius instead of 45 in a "normal car". Why not put the effort into fleet vehicles, which run more often, more miles, with higher gains. If I can get that city bus from 1 mpg to 3 mpg over it's half million mile life...

Along the same lines, in Ludington, MI there is one of the biggest batteries I'm aware of. Water pumped from lake MI to a reservoir during the night, and makes power during the day going back down. Ludington pumped storage....
Ludington Pumped Storage Plant Increases Efficiency to Provide Greater Grid Support

Saw a thing on PBS about "normal" solutions to energy problems. There was a modified AC unit that made huge tubs of ice at night, then barely used any energy all day long. If there's cheaper power at night, these kinds of things happen all by themselves. If that AC is more efficient, it, as a whole, frees up "fuel" of some sort for uses elsewhere.

I think you guyz'z troll claims for someone actively disagreeing isn't particularly fair. Some comments were troll, to me. But certainly not all. I don't doubt for a second that "reliability issues" could be overlooked by "the media". Not a conspiracy, but not the narrative that's desired. "the media" can dismiss them, just like the collective participants of this thread did (think about it). There is plenty of science to dispute the global warming fears, too. Lets have some critical thinking.

 

[xring100]

Every station wagon and SUV I've owned had a fold-forward rear seat cushion. (Then rear seatbacks that folded forward to meet that folded cushion).

I saw these Bolt seats had a full 'skirt' to the floor like a sedan with no place for a hinge. I asked and the sales rep verified that the bases are fixed, only the seatbacks fold.

I believe the battery pack actually makes its way up under the seats the seats do however fold flat to the rear cargo shelf

 

[California]

I believe the battery pack actually makes its way up under the seats the seats do however fold flat to the rear cargo shelf

Loading say an ice chest in through the side door, is there a surface there to set it on? Or would I need to add some sort of platform to use the space clear up to the front seatbacks?

 

[IslandTractor]

Interesting thread. I actually read it all.....

I'm an engineer, and an electric car intrigues me. Part of me wants one, but they're just "not there", IMO.

I can get a honda accord cvt that gets 45+mpg. The payoff for a hybrid sure isn't there. I sure can't see that electric is either. It has to be subsidized, which pretty obviously shows that the economics aren't there. Its interesting that the economics are there for some and not others, as if the prices are any different.

The maintenance free.......boy, I dunno about that either. I have a Civic with 173,xxx on it. I have hardly done jack to that car. Sure, I've done the front brakes....ONCE. An electric has a braking system too, even if they're used less. How much less than 80K+ do you want? I've done rear shocks, but electrics have those too. There's an awful lot of car that *isn't* the engine that needs maintenance eventually.

Regen braking....Actually, hydraulics are a *great* solution. To a degree, a flywheel or PTO mounted pump/motor. It pressurizes to a tank, then releases back through the motor. Busses, garbage trucks, UPS, Fedex etc. are the biggest gains. To this point, it's entertaining to put all this time/money/effort into such small gains. So I can get 50 in my prius instead of 45 in a "normal car". Why not put the effort into fleet vehicles, which run more often, more miles, with higher gains. If I can get that city bus from 1 mpg to 3 mpg over it's half million mile life...

Along the same lines, in Ludington, MI there is one of the biggest batteries I'm aware of. Water pumped from lake MI to a reservoir during the night, and makes power during the day going back down. Ludington pumped storage....
Ludington Pumped Storage Plant Increases Efficiency to Provide Greater Grid Support

Saw a thing on PBS about "normal" solutions to energy problems. There was a modified AC unit that made huge tubs of ice at night, then barely used any energy all day long. If there's cheaper power at night, these kinds of things happen all by themselves. If that AC is more efficient, it, as a whole, frees up "fuel" of some sort for uses elsewhere.

I think you guyz'z troll claims for someone actively disagreeing isn't particularly fair. Some comments were troll, to me. But certainly not all. I don't doubt for a second that "reliability issues" could be overlooked by "the media". Not a conspiracy, but not the narrative that's desired. "the media" can dismiss them, just like the collective participants of this thread did (think about it). There is plenty of science to dispute the global warming fears, too. Lets have some critical thinking.

1) I would agree that the cheapest car to operate today is still a barebones Honda Civic or Toyota Corolla or Mazda 3 or similar Hyundai, Kai, Subaru etc. These are very mature products and extremely reliable so maintenance costs are minimal and if something does go wrong there are so many of them out there that parts and repair costs are cheap. If a ICE powered version of one of these cars gets 35mpg (realistic) on the highway and 27-28 in town, then depending on the type of driving you do your average MPG will be slightly north of 30. If you drive 15K per year you'll use 500 gallons of gas, roughly $1300 at today's prices. A hybrid will cost at least a few thousand more to buy and will get 45mpg in the city and on the highway. Maybe a touch more. That same 15K miles will use 300 gallons of gas costing about $800. Fuel savings of about $500/yr will take 5-10 years to recover. Not a particularly good ROI. Of course things change when gas costs $4/gallon. Also, while the hybrids are reliable, they add an extra high cost maintenance concern as local garages cannot work on the hybrid system so you are stuck with dealer service if such service is needed.

2) Use of AC and heat affects true electric car range significantly. Not such a problem for the hybrids.

3) There is very little good science that "disputes" global warming "fears". There is still much to learn about global warming but that is very different from "disputing" it. When 97% of relevant scientists agree on something there is little reason for non scientists to run around "doubting" their conclusions. There are however a lot of politically motivated pseudoscientists and just plain old knownothings who like to dispute science they are not at all prepared to understand.

 

[/pine]

There is very little good science that "disputes" global warming "fears". There is still much to learn about global warming but that is very different from "disputing" it. When 97% of relevant scientists agree on something there is little reason for non scientists to run around "doubting" their conclusions. There are however a lot of politically motivated pseudoscientists and just plain old knownothings who like to dispute science they are not at all prepared to understand.

It only takes an inkling of reasonable doubt IMO...The issue has never been about how many scientists say this or say that...the entire debate is about the data and how it has been manipulated by the AGW choir...
Every change in the way data is collected/regarded over the last decade has been done so to make it appear warmer.
And BTW...the AGW side of the issue is by far the most politically motivated...

 

[houstonscott]

1) I would agree that the cheapest car to operate today is still a barebones Honda Civic or Toyota Corolla or Mazda 3 or similar Hyundai, Kai, Subaru etc. These are very mature products and extremely reliable so maintenance costs are minimal and if something does go wrong there are so many of them out there that parts and repair costs are cheap. If a ICE powered version of one of these cars gets 35mpg (realistic) on the highway and 27-28 in town, then depending on the type of driving you do your average MPG will be slightly north of 30. If you drive 15K per year you'll use 500 gallons of gas, roughly $1300 at today's prices. A hybrid will cost at least a few thousand more to buy and will get 45mpg in the city and on the highway. Maybe a touch more. That same 15K miles will use 300 gallons of gas costing about $800. Fuel savings of about $500/yr will take 5-10 years to recover. Not a particularly good ROI. Of course things change when gas costs $4/gallon. Also, while the hybrids are reliable, they add an extra high cost maintenance concern as local garages cannot work on the hybrid system so you are stuck with dealer service if such service is needed. 2) Use of AC and heat affects true electric car range significantly. Not such a problem for the hybrids. 3) There is very little good science that "disputes" global warming "fears". There is still much to learn about global warming but that is very different from "disputing" it. When 97% of relevant scientists agree on something there is little reason for non scientists to run around "doubting" their conclusions. There are however a lot of politically motivated pseudoscientists and just plain old knownothings who like to dispute science they are not at all prepared to understand.

That whole argument is based solely on moving one or maybe two adults with the most basic performance for a short distance in minimal comfort. Something all but first time buyers in the car market are willing to tolerate do to minimal resources. Cheap and efficient are not the same. And efficiency has to measured against capability. You could say a scouter is cheaper basic transportation over a Civic, to get my point.

 

[houstonscott]

It only takes an inkling of reasonable doubt IMO...The issue has never been about how many scientists say this or say that...the entire debate is about the data and how it has been manipulated by the AGW choir... Every change in the way data is collected/regarded over the last decade has been done so to make it appear warmer. And BTW...the AGW side of the issue is by far the most politically motivated...

the 97% number is fake news.

 

[aeblank]

It only takes an inkling of reasonable doubt IMO...The issue has never been about how many scientists say this or say that...the entire debate is about the data and how it has been manipulated by the AGW choir...
Every change in the way data is collected/regarded over the last decade has been done so to make it appear warmer.
And BTW...the AGW side of the issue is by far the most politically motivated...

Thanks, saved me the response.
Consensus is not fact.
I'm sure we can agree that things are changing. Why.....well, the world is complicated and that's where data acquisition techniques etc. can cloud matters.

Regardless of those questions.......do the environmental changes warrant the $3K+ in extra DPF/DEF stuff on my truck? How about trucking around millions of gallons of DEF? What about the 2.5 gallon plastic jugs I put in the landfill (or perhaps recycle)? The cardboard that often goes around the jug? Or the fact that I can get over 20mpg driving on the highway but during regen I get.....I dunno.......12mpg. I've read that some think the smaller particles (post DPF) are worse as they stay suspended in the air longer. Beats me, but it shows the extremes we're going through.

I know I was fuel to it, but the technical aspects of the power grid, distributed sources, and electric cars are the original subject and much more interesting. The first cars *were* electric. If those guys had lithium batteries, just imagine how different things might be.

 

[xring100]

Loading say an ice chest in through the side door, is there a surface there to set it on? Or would I need to add some sort of platform to use the space clear up to the front seatbacks?

There is at most 4-5 inches of gap between the seat back and the seat once folded flat with where i adjust the drivers sear. The 2nd row head rest actually fold back and only protrude 2.5 - 3" from the top of the seat.

The seat backs are actually quite tall. If i did not lay the head rest down i could not put the seat back down without moving the driver seat forward

 

[houstonscott]

Best highest milage cars are not sold in USA, VW Polo TDi for example is just like a Golf only just a bit smaller and easily gets over 100mpg.

 

[Luke'sScreenName]

This thread has impressively gone almost 200 posts without being locked-down. Maybe we can let global warming drop? Anyone who still thinks it is "fake news" is not going to be convinced otherwise (especially by posts here). The converse is also true.

I am generally ignorant about EVs so this thread has been interesting.

 

[Luke'sScreenName]

Best highest milage cars are not sold in USA, VW Polo TDi for example is just like a Golf only just a bit smaller and easily gets over 100mpg.

If this is true, I wonder if this is because they don't meet our safety standards or lack of demand?

 

[California]

There is at most 4-5 inches of gap between the seat back and the seat once folded flat with where i adjust the drivers sear. The 2nd row head rest actually fold back and only protrude 2.5 - 3" from the top of the seat. The seat backs are actually quite tall. If i did not lay the head rest down i could not put the seat back down without moving the driver seat forward

You are likely taller than me, I'm 5'5 on a good day. It looked to me that there wouldn't be sufficient support for an ice chest or smaller luggage resting all the way forward on those seatbacks, with the driver seat adjusted for me, without adding some sort of platform to close the gaps between rear seatbacks and make a level floor all the way forward. Is this what you see?

 

[IslandTractor]

This thread has impressively gone almost 200 posts without being locked-down. Maybe we can let global warming drop? Anyone who still thinks it is "fake news" is not going to be convinced otherwise (especially by posts here). The converse is also true.

I am generally ignorant about EVs so this thread has been interesting.

Good idea.

 

[IslandTractor]

If this is true, I wonder if this is because they don't meet our safety standards or lack of demand?

Polo doesn't meet USA safety standards as I recall.