Battery based electric vehicles of today and tomorrow.

[buickanddeere]

That is odd, we have propane forklifts at work and they pull liquid propane out of the tank, then run it through a vaporizer (which is heated by coolant), doesn't matter how cold it gets, they have gaseous propane to run the engine (once they get warmed up).

Aaron Z

An old folk lift is one thing . A new Tier IV emissions highway vehicle is another .

 

[aczlan]

An old folk lift is one thing . A new Tier IV emissions highway vehicle is another .

We just bought new forklifts this year that are setup that way. Liquid withdrawal from the tank to a coolant heated vaporizer, then to a pressure regulator, then on to a fuel injection system.
How else will you gurantee that you are feeding the engine gaseous propane?
Generally, most commercial propane powered engines are setup the same way.


Aaron Z

 

[TheGoose]

You are not understanding that battery tech has itç—´ limits . Lithium ion is peaked out now .
There has been no improvements to lead acid , nicad or alkaline batteries in decades . How does anyone expect existing lithium ion types to double or triple capacity .
Lithium Sulphur is being researched . However the price , reliability , number of charge cycles , charge rate and discharge rate make lithium Sulphur only useful and for specialized military equipment .
Lithium ion are dangerously reactive already . Lithium Sulphur contains 2X-3X the amount of energy to release during a thermal run away or physical damage .

I said not one thing about lithium ion in my post. I don’t give a rats behind about the chemistry of the battery. All you have to do is look at how technology has changed in 20 years. Battery tech, as a whole, is greatly improved over time.

There are economic reasons and drivers aside from EV’s that will drive battery tech whether it be Lithium or other materials.

The fact is that lithium batteries of today can do the job but they are still too expensive. I read an article awhile back about how the cost of the batteries has been drastically reduced in the last 4-5 years and is still headed down.

I personally own 5 ICE vehicles with two being diesel. I’m not against ICE, but I can already see that just like other technology their time is coming to an end. You can’t fight the future.

 

[buickanddeere]

I said not one thing about lithium ion in my post. I don’t give a rats behind about the chemistry of the battery. All you have to do is look at how technology has changed in 20 years. Battery tech, as a whole, is greatly improved over time.

There are economic reasons and drivers aside from EV’s that will drive battery tech whether it be Lithium or other materials.

The fact is that lithium batteries of today can do the job but they are still too expensive. I read an article awhile back about how the cost of the batteries has been drastically reduced in the last 4-5 years and is still headed down.

I personally own 5 ICE vehicles with two being diesel. I’m not against ICE, but I can already see that just like other technology their time is coming to an end. You can’t fight the future.

You can “believe” all you want . You can “ want wonderful things “ , you can “mean well”. Still doesn’t change the laws of physics .

 

[TheGoose]

Battery prices falling. Predicted that for every doubling in manufacturing capacity the price will drop 18% due to economy of scale.

 

[TheGoose]

You can “believe” all you want . You can “ want wonderful things “ , you can “mean well”. Still doesn’t change the laws of physics .

I’m not sure if you’re trying to label me or what. I only stated facts, not hypothesis.

Please explain to me what the laws of physics are that will permanently limit battery size energy density to 2020 levels?

I’m not saying you’re going to carry around a 1 mega watt hr battery the size of a smart phone in your pocket. I’m saying that it’s only going to take a few more marginal gains in efficiency and cost.

Everything else will change right? Computers will get cheaper/faster/lighter/more powerful, materials will get lighter, heck even ICE engines will improve their efficiency, but battery tech is frozen at 2020 levels?

 

[/pine]

In general technology advances every 18 months...it's not always a smooth curve...
As far as batteries...the limits of Lithium may be close...just like it was reached with Alkaline (NiCd) etc., etc...

If the future is EVs...it's going to be with their own power sources...not batteries unless some game changing discovery or advancement is made...

 

[Jim Nelson]

I asked the UPS driver the other day if they had any electric delivery vans yet. He said he heard that had some or they were on order but they semis that ran on natural gas. The link below states how they are using CNG.

UPS To Add More Than 6, Vehicles To Its Natural Gas Fleet

1 reasons why CNG is the new diesel | Fleet Europe

My neighbor and good friend lost his construction company during the last economic train wreck and ended up driving a bus for the local transportation district that was CNG powered. We were talking and I said "At least it's air conditioned"
. His reply was "No it doesn't have enough power to run the a.c."

It might smell better outside but inside could get pretty ripe. There is a price for conservation, like it or not.

 

[Egon]

Battery charging does not work . Don稚 waste our time with fables of new cheaper and better batteries just around the corner . That story is decades old .
Also spare us the compressed air , trains on mountains and pumped hydraulic reservoirs tales as well.

Using power in off peak hours would even out the changes required from the generating stations.

As for charging batteries it seems to work for myself and probably most of the people in this country including yourself. What does one of the main backup systems you have at work run on constantly? It would not be a battery System would it?

 

[California]

Battery charging does not work . Don't waste our time with fables ...

Also spare us the ... pumped hydraulic reservoirs tales as well.

Pumped hydraulic energy storage is a tale, a fable, as you see the world.

In contrast out here in reality this facility stores up to 1,200 megawatts.

Its been on line 35 years now. (That link also lists some other innovative projects).

 

[DarkBlack]

Pumped hydraulic energy storage is a tale, a fable, as you see the world.

In contrast out here in reality this facility stores up to 1,200 megawatts.
Its been on line 35 years now. (That link also lists some other innovative projects).

You can稚 store up to 1,200 megawatts.
Both you and the website seem to be missing a time factor

 

[radios1]

if you look here, https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/fuel_comparison_chart.pdf electric has the highest price per BTU!!..

 

[California]

You can稚 store up to 1,200 megawatts.
Both you and the website seem to be missing a time factor

Actually that link says "produces and stores". 1200+ mw is the output its capable of, and apparently can be attained in 8 minutes from a cold start.

The link refutes his statement that hydraulic energy storage is a myth, a fable. On the contrary it's real and has been for many years. Are you also saying pumped hydraulic storage is a tale?

 

[buickanddeere]

Pumped hydraulic energy storage is a tale, a fable, as you see the world.

In contrast out here in reality this facility stores up to 1,200 megawatts.

Its been on line 35 years now. (That link also lists some other innovative projects).

Not enough capacity to be worthwhile. Where are going to build more and large projects ?

 

[buickanddeere]

Actually that link says "produces and stores". 1200+ mw is the output its capable of, and apparently can be attained in 8 minutes from a cold start.

The link refutes his statement that hydraulic energy storage is a myth, a fable. On the contrary it's real and has been for many years. Are you also saying pumped hydraulic storage is a tale?

If lumped storage worked , utilities would build and use it .

 

[Gale Hawkins]

Yesterday I went and picked up our 2016 Nissan Leaf SL. After the 30 kWh traction battery failed to maintain 63% of its new stated capacity (lost 4 of its 12 State of Health bars) in only 38 months of use it triggered the replacement warranty. Since the 30 kWh battery has been discontinued they replaced it with the 40 kWh batteries used in the 2020 Leaf. The Leaf Plus uses a 62 kWh battery.

I took the car in 30 Dec 2019 and a few days later determined the battery was ad but said they could not decide in the Memphis Nissan division what to do about it since the new battery listed for $12,500.00 plus labor. A buy back was mentioned and I think the service writer could hear my blood pressure thumping over the phone. Since I had started my claim directly with a National Leaf Customer Rep and had a contact and case number I just let things ride because I wanted to see how it played out since I wanted to know more before we added more Nissan EV's in the coming years. With the Nissan downsizing talk and the former CEO now a fugitive from the law talking about the Nissan company being in bankruptcy in 2022 was not helping my comfort level.

More Bad News at Nissan - The Drive

I just got back in contact with my contact at the national Leaf Customer Service center. Then the Nissan dealership changed my point of contact in their service department and the replacement happened in short order. When I picked it up yesterday the Leaf certified tech came up to the counter and answered a few questions.

Perhaps this new CEO (third one) just put in charge is serious about saving Nissan.

This is my 6th Nissan since 1973 so I have long been sold on the brand but this is our first Nissan without a gas tank.

Using the 150 mile range battery to replace the 107 mile range battery just happened in Jan I have been told so all of the delays on my part and that of Nissan seemed to have worked in our favor. We actually are going to have a few nights of cold temps that will test it somewhat.

What I have learned since last Oct it that I prefer EV's over ICE's for moving people to work, etc. They are quite and the power off of the line is addicting. If one is in the market due to wants or needs then take a look if you wish. Beware they can be addicting.

Retired people with a new like car may be set for life with what they now own. Even 10 years from now production will not be high enough so all new cars sold could be electric. It is not for another 20 years before NEW gas and diesel car sales is expected to be totally pulled off the market in some states in the USA. The supply of batteries for electric cars and trucks is going to be the main hold up of selling more EV's now that Tesla has removed all doubt about the validity of building and driving EV's as daily drivers. It will be interesting to see how many of the old car names are still in business 10-15 years down the road if they miss the paradigm shift away from gas and diesel engines.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

Elon Musk will become the world's richest man in April if Tesla's value stays at $1billion | Daily Mail Online

Electric vehicles impact is changing the way we think about the future on earth and beyond. I guess the first EV I saw was running around on the moon over 50 years ago. Never thought I would own one some day when I finished high school in 1969. A few dreaming of space have changed the lives of many.

 

[DarkBlack]

Actually that link says "produces and stores". 1200+ mw is the output its capable of, and apparently can be attained in 8 minutes from a cold start.

The link refutes his statement that hydraulic energy storage is a myth, a fable. On the contrary it's real and has been for many years. Are you also saying pumped hydraulic storage is a tale?

No, you are still missing it. You can not store a certain mega watts It would need to have a time value- like megawatt hours.

 

[California]

No, you are still missing it. You can not store a certain mega watts It would need to have a time value- like megawatt hours.

The issue discussed is whether hydraulic energy storage is a myth, a fable. The Helms plant illustrates that the concept is real, and apparently economically rational, its not a fable as asserted in a recent post.

That website defines the peak output attainable, it doesn't say how long until it runs out of water. Write them and ask them how long the water can produce 1200 mw.

 

[DarkBlack]

Pumped hydraulic energy storage is a tale, a fable, as you see the world.

In contrast out here in reality this facility stores up to 1,200 megawatts.

Its been on line 35 years now. (That link also lists some other innovative projects).

Read your own post. That is what I wrote you about. It is wrong that is all. Plain and simple