Electrical / romex mess

[plowhog]

I was going to say, most breakers are okay with having two wires in them, shaving the wire down so it will fit in the breaker is a No-No though.

That might be MossRoad's situation, but it's not mine.

 

[plowhog]

If it is not marked UF ...

I re-inspected the cable in bright sunlight using my 3.5+ cheaters.

It is marked UF and also says "S U N L I G H T R E S I S T A N T"

There is also a funny marking on the other side of the wire-- kind of like a horse hoofprint in the ground but more triangular. Perhaps a manufacturer logo?

 

[plowhog]

There should be zero volts ac (or close to it) from either white to ground and 110-130 volts ac from black to ground or white.

I'm going to test for voltage on the white wire today, both with the switch on as well as off.

 

[fishdrivel]

I never saw anyone post anything that said this. Certainly not me.

More info: I believe it is UF romex-- there is no paper and it looks just like the pictured one. I can excavate the exposed wire back to the inner wall, then turn it up into a (new) box with no splicing.

Both romex wires are connected to the same breaker. One is switched (the former light circuit) and one is always hot. Both are connected to the same breaker-- a 15amp Square D arc fault breaker.

 

[grsthegreat]

Omg. A ground fault breaker will prevent any issues in future. And you won’t burn down your house. Ive been an electrical contractor for over 30 years. With a GFCI breaker even if you took a wire cutter and cut thru live lines you would not even see a spark. plowhog has said its uf cable. Problem solved. Either use an accessible j box or a direct burial splice and be done. have fun with your project.

 

[aczlan]

If they are both connected to the same breaker, why does that breaker not cut off power to 2nd??????

2 circuits connected to the same breaker is not to code, not safe, and leads me to believe it was a DIY'er

I suspect that the the OP had shut off the light switch, but not the breaker.
No reason you can't run multiple circuits off of one breaker (other than Kitchen, smoke alarm, etc circuits that are required to be separate).

An outlet and a switched light circuit to an outbuilding or other location is done all the time, look at light poles that have outlets at the base of the pole, or power for a camera mounted on the pole.

Aaron Z

 

[plowhog]

Fishdrivel, I appreciate your contributions. I worded my original post poorly, then corrected it later. With so many posts some things get lost in the tangle! What I corrected it to was that both circuits trace back to / are controlled by the same breaker.

This is the problem with dealing with electrical newbies like me!

 

[Diggin It]

Do I understand your post correctly... the always-hot UF cable should normally have voltage only on the black lead and not the white, but if I turn on the switch, (heating up the other UF cable) the neutral/white wire on the "always hot" UF cable would then show voltage? And it would feed that voltage on the neutral/white wire back to the panel?

Typically there should never be voltage on the white. White to ground should read 0 Volts. HOWEVER, there are exceptions. If a two conductor is used as a switch loop, you would have voltage on the white when the switch is on. Black/Hot to the switch, white/switched hot from the switch. BUT, that white should be marked with black tape.

My 220V water heater uses two conductor with ground from the panel to the disconnect near the WH. The black and the white each carry 110V.

 

[plowhog]

I suspect that the the OP had shut off the light switch, but not the breaker.

You are correct. I turned the switch off, saw the light turn off, and thought all was well.

After pulling up the pole and light fixture (and a giant blob of concrete) I saw the 2nd UF cable, which I didn't expect. I mistakenly presumed it used the light circuit as its source, and traveled on to another "downstream" ... something. But .... I was later "jolted" back to reality.

 

[oldpilot]

>I know you are not supposed to put romex in conduit

Why not? Safer than burying it, surely!

 

[Diggin It]

OK, now that sounds like a switch loop. See this example of how I understand what you have. I used yellow in place of white so it would show up.

 

[oldwirepuller]

We have a light on a pole in our driveway. Its in a center circle bordered by pavers. I want to replace the light with a water feature.

I turned power off, removed the light and pole, and found two romex lines. One was still hot (don't ask!) They are about 2 feet below current grade, and about 3 feet below what the new grade will be.

I need to move these lines as the new water feature would be sitting right on top of them. I wish they were long enough to get to an electrical box on the edge of the circle, but they are not nearly long enough. And I still need power out there for the new pump.

I know you are not supposed to put romex in conduit. Nor splice wires and have electric junction boxes underground. But I'm stumped on what else to do?

Any ideas?
View attachment 701068

Call a licensed electrical contractor. Someone has been feeding un-truths. Wires can be spliced underground and romex can be installed in a conduit for physical protection of the wire.

 

[HarryMonkey]

As a retired Journeyman Electrician, I won't make any judgements from reading emails---too easy to make an assumption and find out later it was wrong. What I usually do is to advise people to buy and read "Wiring Simplified" by Richter---I think it's still available at Home Depot and others. If you follow it, you will have a safe and effective electrical installation.
My opinion on UF cable is to not direct bury it or any other around here (middle California) because of Gophers. I have never been called out to repair rodent damage on PVC or other pipe in the ground but have been many times on direct burial cables. The call usually comes in a big wet storm when the chewed cable shorts out due to moisture.
BTW: Yes, when a 120vac load is energized, the return wire in a Romex cable is indeed energized and can bite. Yes, that is from personal experience. And green wires are sometimes hot if the uniformed have been tinkering around in the circuit, yes again.
GCFI's save lives and livestock.

 

[axeman79]

We have a light on a pole in our driveway. Its in a center circle bordered by pavers. I want to replace the light with a water feature.

I turned power off, removed the light and pole, and found two romex lines. One was still hot (don't ask!) They are about 2 feet below current grade, and about 3 feet below what the new grade will be.

I need to move these lines as the new water feature would be sitting right on top of them. I wish they were long enough to get to an electrical box on the edge of the circle, but they are not nearly long enough. And I still need power out there for the new pump.

I know you are not supposed to put romex in conduit. Nor splice wires and have electric junction boxes underground. But I'm stumped on what else to do?

Any ideas?
View attachment 701068

You should not run UF wire through conduit. However, the actual wire without the jacket is likely THWN, which can be in conduit. You could convert to conduit as long as the UF shielding is removed. It would be best to do this is a junction box. I doubt the electrical code prohibits underground splices since devices exist to facilitate that very thing. This more pressing issue is wire size and the intended amperage you intend to draw through it.

 

[fishdrivel]

You are correct. I turned the switch off, saw the light turn off, and thought all was well.

After pulling up the pole and light fixture (and a giant blob of concrete) I saw the 2nd UF cable, which I didn't expect. I mistakenly presumed it used the light circuit as its source, and traveled on to another "downstream" ... something. But .... I was later "jolted" back to reality.

Whatever you decide to do, you need to identify how to turn-off the 2nd wire. Yes it is insulated but there could be a shovel nick in the wire.

I'm convinced you have UF wire
You absolutely can use splice kits. Perform work precisely!
Depth should be: http://www.adamselectric.coop/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Minimum-Cover-Requirements.pdf
If you have any double -tapped breakers they must be designed for it. MFG label says "2 pole" Easily corrected.

If this were my home, I would rather have direct-bury splices than to have j-boxes sticking up next to where people are driving.
I'd also want a GFCI breaker.

 

[Diggin It]

We seem to be getting an awful lot of uninformed posters here.

 

[civilian]

We seem to be getting an awful lot of uninformed posters here.

Agree. Also sounds like they have not read through all of the posts. I think the OP said around post 44 that he had all figured out and thanked the posters. Jon

 

[plowhog]

We seem to be getting an awful lot of uninformed posters here.

I noticed several brand new members posting. First-ever, or second-ever posts. So I guess my inquiry is good for the forum business !!!

 

[Diggin It]

I noticed several brand new members posting. First-ever, or second-ever posts. So I guess my inquiry is good for the forum business !!!

See the Boss's post in this thread:

It's happening again.

"Some are just verts". Yes, those who cherish the JD brand.

www.tractorbynet.com

Ignore the text in the quote, but click the link to read.

 

[plowhog]

I think the OP said around post 44 that he had all figured out and thanked the posters.

My licensed electrician finally returned my call. He said the described plan is exactly what should be done-- thank you all again for the many replies!!!