2008 F250 4x4 Diesel or V10?

[Builder]

I think the 6.2L might replace the 5.4 V-8 and the V-10 because of stiffer CAFE standards. The 6.2L will have direct injection and displacement on demand to meet stricter mileage standards as well as up to 7L displacement. Last year, there was an article about the Lincoln Navigator appearing late in summer '08 with the new "Boss".

Everything else I read says the Boss goes into F Series trucks first.

GM is rumored to be moving their own 6.2L already in the Denali into their pickups to replace the 6L.

 

[beefeater]

That new boss 6.2 is slated for the Harley Davidson edition of the 2009 F150. The standard F150 is not due out until September. Therefore, the HD edition with the new Boss 6.2 is not likely to appear until late Fall of after- say November/December. That's nearly one year from now. Who knows when it will show up in the F250's?

As usual with these sorts of things, are you willing to be buying Ford's first year production run? I'm not. So for me, the Boss 6.2 with the corresponding new tranny etc is not even a gleam in my eye for two years. The V10 is still looking like the gasser to buy, for as long as it is available.

 

[Builder]

That new boss 6.2 is slated for the Harley Davidson edition of the 2009 F150. The standard F150 is not due out until September. Therefore, the HD edition with the new Boss 6.2 is not likely to appear until late Fall of after- say November/December. That's nearly one year from now. Who knows when it will show up in the F250's?

As usual with these sorts of things, are you willing to be buying Ford's first year production run? I'm not. So for me, the Boss 6.2 with the corresponding new tranny etc is not even a gleam in my eye for two years. The V10 is still looking like the gasser to buy, for as long as it is available.

And in that same train of thought, look at all the guys who ran out and bought new 6.4L twin turbo diesels.....pretty gutsy indeed.

If I outgrow my current GMC, I might pick up a 010 or 011 F-350 crewcab with a utility body with the 6.2L Boss engine if GM doesn't make any improved gas engine moves in the next few years. If someone can give me more than 500 ftlbs in a gas engine with unleaded .50 c. under diesel, then why not.

 

[Dargo]

I can't fully agree there.

Think about it for a minute. Ford could easily build lots of V-10's. Everyone here, including me, has wanted one at one time and they are definately the best/most heavy duty big gasser of the big three brands of truck. If Ford stocks the lots wide & deep with V-10's, it will cut into the more profitable diesel truck sales and everyone up & down the chain makes less money-Ford, owner of dealership,

Sorry man, I'm not trying to convince you, I'm just telling you the plain facts. I'm in the business. The fact is that the diesel pickups are the ones in demand, so that is what the dealers stock. Believe me, they can get all the V10's they want. The dealers only care to stock what sells and what sells for a profit. For some reason it seems that you want to think that I'm saying that the V10 engines are junk; I'm not. I'm simply saying flat out, no opinion involved, only fact, that they do not sell well at all. Ford has no trouble selling their diesel pickups at all and it is completely off base to think that Ford holds off on delivering V10 pickups to help sell their diesel pickups. Trust me, after 23 years in the business, dealers stock what will sell and sell for a profit.

I am actually in the market for an Excursion right now and that is why I've watched what the V10 SuperDuty pickups and V10 Excursions have sold for at auction vs their diesel counter parts. The difference this last Thursday between the price of a V10 powered unit and a diesel powered unit in 2000 and 2001 model years was nearly 8000 on average!

 

[Z-Michigan]

There's no way a Powerstroke diesel costs ~$6,500 more to manufacture than a V-10.

I don't know if I'd agree with that. A couple issues with the Powerstroke diesel:
-manufactured by an outside vendor, Navistar Intl, who has to make their own profit
-basically no parts commonality with any part of any gas engine they make
-high pressure diesel fuel injector pump - $1000? $1500?
-cost of diesel type high pressure fuel injectors - $500???
-diesel particulate filter on 2007+ models - $1500?
-turbocharger - $500? (I know DMAX and Cummins use a variable nozzle turbo that would cost even more, I don't know whether Ford uses VNT)
-different transmission to handle much more torque than gassers - $??
-added warranty costs because of longer warranty (100k) and heavier use in service - $?? And remember Ford's huge dispute with Navistar a year ago that lead to a shutdown of diesel engine shipments for a couple weeks; that showdown was over warranty costs and which company had to pay them.

I really don't know the price of any particular component, I'm just pointing out that there are lot more expensive parts that go into a diesel engine, compared to a naturally aspirated gas engine with port fuel injection. The cost gap might narrow as gas engines adopt turbos and direct injection, but for the moment - I think it's a big, real gap.

Not arguing that Ford doesn't make money off each diesel, I'm sure they are quite profitable, but saying that I don't think it's anything like an added $6500 in profit.

 

[joes_427_vette]

I think you should special order the v-10. I bet they want 50 percent down in the event you don't take it. They are sale proof used and no dealer in his right mind stocks them... and for good reason.
Take a good look at the hood on the ford.... they circle the problem for you !

 

[Builder]

I don't know if I'd agree with that. A couple issues with the Powerstroke diesel:
-manufactured by an outside vendor, Navistar Intl, who has to make their own profit
-basically no parts commonality with any part of any gas engine they make
-high pressure diesel fuel injector pump - $1000? $1500?
-cost of diesel type high pressure fuel injectors - $500???
-diesel particulate filter on 2007+ models - $1500?
-turbocharger - $500? (I know DMAX and Cummins use a variable nozzle turbo that would cost even more, I don't know whether Ford uses VNT)
-different transmission to handle much more torque than gassers - $??
-added warranty costs because of longer warranty (100k) and heavier use in service - $?? And remember Ford's huge dispute with Navistar a year ago that lead to a shutdown of diesel engine shipments for a couple weeks; that showdown was over warranty costs and which company had to pay them.

I really don't know the price of any particular component, I'm just pointing out that there are lot more expensive parts that go into a diesel engine, compared to a naturally aspirated gas engine with port fuel injection. The cost gap might narrow as gas engines adopt turbos and direct injection, but for the moment - I think it's a big, real gap.

Not arguing that Ford doesn't make money off each diesel, I'm sure they are quite profitable, but saying that I don't think it's anything like an added $6500 in profit.

I know they don't because I've bought Powerstrokes from a vendor before and they weren't $6,500.

Ford gets 'em a wee bit cheaper than me, don't you think? They buy in "bulk".

 

[Builder]

Sorry man, I'm not trying to convince you, I'm just telling you the plain facts. I'm in the business. The fact is that the diesel pickups are the ones in demand, so that is what the dealers stock. Believe me, they can get all the V10's they want. The dealers only care to stock what sells and what sells for a profit. For some reason it seems that you want to think that I'm saying that the V10 engines are junk; I'm not. I'm simply saying flat out, no opinion involved, only fact, that they do not sell well at all. Ford has no trouble selling their diesel pickups at all and it is completely off base to think that Ford holds off on delivering V10 pickups to help sell their diesel pickups. Trust me, after 23 years in the business, dealers stock what will sell and sell for a profit.

I am actually in the market for an Excursion right now and that is why I've watched what the V10 SuperDuty pickups and V10 Excursions have sold for at auction vs their diesel counter parts. The difference this last Thursday between the price of a V10 powered unit and a diesel powered unit in 2000 and 2001 model years was nearly 8000 on average!

WTH are you talking about? I never said you said V-10's are junk. I also said that dealers stack their lots deep with Powerstrokes because they're profitable. You must have me mixed up with someone else. So relax. ...seem like a touchy little grasshopper today.

 

[Z-Michigan]

I know they don't because I've bought Powerstrokes from a vendor before and they weren't $6,500.

Ford gets 'em a wee bit cheaper than me, don't you think? They buy in "bulk".

Yeah, I imagine they do. What model/year of Powerstroke did you buy, was it brand spanking new, and what did it cost? Now I'm curious... if you happen to know what a 2006 Cummins ISB goes for (new), I'd be curious about that too!

 

[beefeater]

Dargo,

You still haven't addressed my comments above regarding the V8's that ARE on most dealer's lots along with the diesels.

Everything you claim about the V10's applies to the V8's and yet, dealer's are stocking the V8's.

What gives?

 

[beefeater]

joe 427,

Your post in another thread about the significant decline in Harley Davidson motorcycle sales over the last several years is interesting.

If current market trends prevail, I think we will see the exact same thing happen to diesel truck sales in two to three years.

 

[Builder]

Yeah, I imagine they do. What model/year of Powerstroke did you buy, was it brand spanking new, and what did it cost? Now I'm curious... if you happen to know what a 2006 Cummins ISB goes for (new), I'd be curious about that too!

I don't know the price of a 5.9L

Me and another guy dropped a Stroke into a rollback about 3 years ago and paid under ~$3,000 for a complete longblock w/o radiator, intercooler, starter, a/c comp, etc.

 

[Dargo]

Dargo,

You still haven't addressed my comments above regarding the V8's that ARE on most dealer's lots along with the diesels.

Everything you claim about the V10's applies to the V8's and yet, dealer's are stocking the V8's.

What gives?

Yes, most Ford dealers do have some V10's on their lot; they've likely been there a long time. That is the problem for the dealers. Dealers really don't like having any vehicle on their lot more than 90 days. If one of the largest Ford dealers in this part of the country has sold less than a dozen of them in the last year, that speaks far louder than anything. This is all fact, not opinion.

Now for my opinion. I would positively never consider a 3/4 or 1 ton Ford 4X4 or an Excursion with the weak 5.4 V8; never. I bought my wife a 2003 Expedition with the 5.4 V8 in it and it was one of the most underpowered vehicles I've ever owned since the 60 hp VW Beetles in the 60's. However, I most likely will buy a V10 Excursion this next week if FMC will accept an offer we made on a V10 Excursion at the auction. We we were the high bidder, but they wouldn't sell at that price, which has been a common occurrence with repo'd V10's lately. I'd rather have a diesel Excursion, but with the difference in used ones being $8k or more, the V10 appears to be the way to go. I'd actually love to hear any feedback from anyone who has a V10 Excursion about how they like it as well as their fuel economy.

Oh, beefeater, most of the V8 trucks in this size are only on the lot because Ford forced the dealer to take them in order to get diesels. You see, the manufacturers really work their allocation process to cram undesirable units to dealers. If a dealer wants 25 SuperDuty pickups, their zone rep may very well insist that they take a couple of V8 powered ones or not allow the dealer to have but, maybe, 10 diesel SuperDuty pickups. They really put the screws to the dealers this way, and it's not just Ford. The poor dealer has to stock what he's making money on but gets forced to take units that aren't moving well in order to get the units he needs to make money. It's honestly a really dirty game that the public never sees. You ought to hear some of the negotiations between dealers when they go to dealer trade for a diesel SuperDuty. The dealer with the SuperDuty that is wanted by another dealer will very often say that they'll sell the dealer the SuperDuty, but only if that dealer also takes a V8 or V10 SuperDuty from him as well.

 

[Diamondpilot]

You guys are right about the dealers having to take the V8's. I stopped by my Ford dealer yesterday. He is a good friend of mine, got me into flying by riding along in the dealerships airplanes. Any who, he had about 45 Super Duty's on the lot. He said they are selling good. I walked the lot and he had over 35 Diesels for sure, did not spend much time due to the weather. I did note there was not a single V10 and the V8's were all base level trucks (XL's), most 2 wheel drive work models.

The other interesting thing was of the trucks on the lot I would say 35 or more were F-350's and a few F-450's. I asked and he said he orders very few F-250 and usually only in the work trucks mentioned above. He said the price difference is minimal and most don't want a F-250, especially if they are a return customer.

Chris

 

[Builder]

I'd buy a 1-2 yr old diesel before I bought new gas power. You'd get a huge price break-well below new gasser price, yet be covered by a 100K warranty on the engine.

Lots of guys buy diesel trucks as a toy and then get over their heads in payments and sell them, or they have to have the newest, hottest diesel.

Tons of 2 yr old used 6L's out there in my local Truck trader for $30K with warranties.

I think the future of big gas power is excellent. With cylinders on demand features coming back, direct injection & turbocharging for more power, we ought to see MPG's comparable to diesels empty. Lower purchase price, cheaper fuel just add to the reasons. Now if they could make them more durable.

 

[Dargo]

Sorry Builder, we're cool. I just thought that you'd had me figured for someone who was trying to slam the V10 Ford, which I'm not. Without any doubt, the diesel will last longer, has far more torque, and is in much higher demand. However, the only real problem (and it's a nasty one) is that for a few years Ford used the same head vendor for the V10 as they did the V8s that only have about three rounds of threads for a few spark plugs. It's all too well documented about the Ford V8 engines spitting out spark plugs. A heli-coil works okay for a quick repair, but won't hold up if the engine is put under any real load. The only real answer is for the poor soul with the bad heads to buy some higher quality aftermarket heads that have proper threads for the spark plugs. All you have to do is Google "Ford spark plugs" and you'll get links to all sorts of horror stories about the Ford V8 and V10 engines popping out spark plugs.

If FMC will accept our bid for a couple of Excursions we were high bidder on, I'll likely take one of them personally and just take my chances. With the price difference between the V10 and diesel, I could put on aftermarket heads if I have to and still be far, far under the price of a diesel. Besides that, I have to admit that I've wondered how difficult it would be for me to put a 7.3 in the Excursion if it blows the spark plugs out. I've seen where I can get some relatively low mileage 7.3 PowerStroke engines. Both the gas and diesel supposedly use the same transmission and both have 44 gallon fuel tanks. I'm assuming that all I'd need is the engine, cooling system, and electrical system from the 7.3 donor truck and possibly some different motor mounts?

 

[Diamondpilot]

Diesel swap from gas is a tough job. You will even be changing the master cylinder for the brakes. Had a friend put a D-MAX in a old Willy's Truck. Nice rig but his $5,000 engine and tranny endend up runing about $25,000 time everything was done. It was more than any of us could have imagined.

Just for example Ford uses electric boosted brakes on the diesels, not sure about dodge, but older GM's use the power steering pump. The entire fuel system will have to go along with the wiring, steering column, dash, ect ect ect.

Chris

 

[Builder]

Sorry Builder, we're cool. I just thought that you'd had me figured for someone who was trying to slam the V10 Ford, which I'm not. Without any doubt, the diesel will last longer, has far more torque, and is in much higher demand. However, the only real problem (and it's a nasty one) is that for a few years Ford used the same head vendor for the V10 as they did the V8s that only have about three rounds of threads for a few spark plugs. It's all too well documented about the Ford V8 engines spitting out spark plugs. A heli-coil works okay for a quick repair, but won't hold up if the engine is put under any real load. The only real answer is for the poor soul with the bad heads to buy some higher quality aftermarket heads that have proper threads for the spark plugs. All you have to do is Google "Ford spark plugs" and you'll get links to all sorts of horror stories about the Ford V8 and V10 engines popping out spark plugs.

If FMC will accept our bid for a couple of Excursions we were high bidder on, I'll likely take one of them personally and just take my chances. With the price difference between the V10 and diesel, I could put on aftermarket heads if I have to and still be far, far under the price of a diesel. Besides that, I have to admit that I've wondered how difficult it would be for me to put a 7.3 in the Excursion if it blows the spark plugs out. I've seen where I can get some relatively low mileage 7.3 PowerStroke engines. Both the gas and diesel supposedly use the same transmission and both have 44 gallon fuel tanks. I'm assuming that all I'd need is the engine, cooling system, and electrical system from the 7.3 donor truck and possibly some different motor mounts?

You'd be assuming far too little. Just buy one that already has a diesel.

 

[Dargo]

You'd be assuming far too little. Just buy one that already has a diesel.

"With the price difference between the V10 and diesel, I could put on aftermarket heads if I have to and still be far, far under the price of a diesel."

Um, I don't think I was very unclear on my intentions. If I wanted a diesel, I'd buy a diesel. Being that the V10 brings $8k or more less, I'm willing to take my chance on having to put heads on an engine that has a history of having bad heads; nothing more, nothing less. Apparently you assumed far too much with a tongue in cheek comment.

 

[Builder]

"With the price difference between the V10 and diesel, I could put on aftermarket heads if I have to and still be far, far under the price of a diesel."

Um, I don't think I was very unclear on my intentions. If I wanted a diesel, I'd buy a diesel. Being that the V10 brings $8k or more less, I'm willing to take my chance on having to put heads on an engine that has a history of having bad heads; nothing more, nothing less. Apparently you assumed far too much with a tongue in cheek comment.

I thought you were referring to buying a V-10 and dropping a Stroke in it. I think Diamondpilot thought the same thing. Man you're tough to read.

Sure changing V-10 heads is no biggie compared to a Stroke swap. But even after the head swap, you still have nothing compared to a Powerstroke in terms of a tow machine or trade-in value.