Welcome to my Nightmare!!!!

EddieWalker · May 15, 2006

( You do not cool or freeze WET sleeves when installing in the block. All this talking of chilling them is for DRY sleeves only as they can be as much as .005" interferance fit.
When installing a wet sleeve you clean out the step at the top of your block and the sealing surface near the bottom, lube your seals with liquid soap and set that puppy in the hole. It will freely go till the sealing rings (o-rings) contact the bottom of the water jacket. Check your sleeve for proper index with the crank (notches in bottom of sleeve). At this point lay a peice of clean hard wood across the top of the sleeve and while holding the wood tap the sleeve home. Do not hit it hard, just gentle raps with a 2LBS hammer.
You could also make a fixture that will bolt to the top of the block going across the sleeve and push it down with a small hyd jack. )

OK, sounds like you know more about this than the rest of us and you're the first and only one to mention there is a difference between wet and dry sleeves.

Mine are wet sleeves.

Will freezing them help at all? Or is this strictly a technique used for dry sleeves?

I've been looking in my two refrigerators and stand up freezer to find space to put six sleeves, with some serious head scratching going on. Harvey got me wondering about space for all those sleeves and how long I need to leave them in the freezer. If I don't have to do this, I can start assembly tomorrow after I pic up my parts and not wait until Wednesday for them to freeze.

I also didn't notice any "O" rings, but they could have been destroyed coming out, or do they melt to form a seal from the engine temps? Could it just be a term and not really look like "O" rings that I'm familiar with?

I'm also wondering what everyone uses to lube the head bolts? Any recomondations?

Thanks.

Dave,

The parts of the picture you circled are surface rust like a film from an early morning downpour. I sprayed it with JB oil and wiped it all down. I was thinking of you when I first got started, so took the picture first, then put away the camera before getting dirty. Steph says she's never seen anybody get as dirty as I do!! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Eddie

EddieWalker · May 15, 2006

( You do not cool or freeze WET sleeves when installing in the block. All this talking of chilling them is for DRY sleeves only as they can be as much as .005" interferance fit.
When installing a wet sleeve you clean out the step at the top of your block and the sealing surface near the bottom, lube your seals with liquid soap and set that puppy in the hole. It will freely go till the sealing rings (o-rings) contact the bottom of the water jacket. Check your sleeve for proper index with the crank (notches in bottom of sleeve). At this point lay a peice of clean hard wood across the top of the sleeve and while holding the wood tap the sleeve home. Do not hit it hard, just gentle raps with a 2LBS hammer.
You could also make a fixture that will bolt to the top of the block going across the sleeve and push it down with a small hyd jack. )

OK, sounds like you know more about this than the rest of us and you're the first and only one to mention there is a difference between wet and dry sleeves.

Mine are wet sleeves.

Will freezing them help at all? Or is this strictly a technique used for dry sleeves?

I've been looking in my two refrigerators and stand up freezer to find space to put six sleeves, with some serious head scratching going on. Harvey got me wondering about space for all those sleeves and how long I need to leave them in the freezer. If I don't have to do this, I can start assembly tomorrow after I pic up my parts and not wait until Wednesday for them to freeze.

I also didn't notice any "O" rings, but they could have been destroyed coming out, or do they melt to form a seal from the engine temps? Could it just be a term and not really look like "O" rings that I'm familiar with?

I'm also wondering what everyone uses to lube the head bolts? Any recomondations?

Thanks.

Dave,

The parts of the picture you circled are surface rust like a film from an early morning downpour. I sprayed it with JB oil and wiped it all down. I was thinking of you when I first got started, so took the picture first, then put away the camera before getting dirty. Steph says she's never seen anybody get as dirty as I do!! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Eddie

tlbuser · May 15, 2006

Cooling a wet sleeve liner is something that is usually NOT done. There is some type of sealing surface (usually o-rings) to keep the wet components (oil and anti-freeze) away from the dry components AND separated from each other. A wet sleeve should press in fairly easy using just some o-ring lube (not vaseline).
We usually apply anti-seize compound to head bolts, but others use threadlocker.
I have not done this on a Cummins diesel, I've only worked on Cat, Detroit and Isuzu.

clevite

BTW, nice tools /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

tlbuser · May 15, 2006

Cooling a wet sleeve liner is something that is usually NOT done. There is some type of sealing surface (usually o-rings) to keep the wet components (oil and anti-freeze) away from the dry components AND separated from each other. A wet sleeve should press in fairly easy using just some o-ring lube (not vaseline).
We usually apply anti-seize compound to head bolts, but others use threadlocker.
I have not done this on a Cummins diesel, I've only worked on Cat, Detroit and Isuzu.

clevite

BTW, nice tools /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

whitetiger · May 15, 2006

There is no advantage to cooling a wet sleeve. The only thing that keeps it from dropping into place is the o-ring seals at the lowwer end. Before you install the o-rins on your new sleeve you should set it into the block and check your sleeve hight with a straight edge and feeler gauge.
I just use engine oil for head bolt lube also the same for any other bolt.
Your o-ring on the old sleeve are there, just do not look like o-rings anymore.
I just put one sleeve in an 8.3 from a NH TJ tractor a few months ago and have overhauled probably 200 diesel engines in the last 25 years. Most were sleeved engines.

whitetiger · May 15, 2006

There is no advantage to cooling a wet sleeve. The only thing that keeps it from dropping into place is the o-ring seals at the lowwer end. Before you install the o-rins on your new sleeve you should set it into the block and check your sleeve hight with a straight edge and feeler gauge.
I just use engine oil for head bolt lube also the same for any other bolt.
Your o-ring on the old sleeve are there, just do not look like o-rings anymore.
I just put one sleeve in an 8.3 from a NH TJ tractor a few months ago and have overhauled probably 200 diesel engines in the last 25 years. Most were sleeved engines.

cmuncy · May 15, 2006

In our diesel drag trucks, we use a high pressure lube for the head studs from Chicago Manufacturing and Distributing . It's a high pressure lube, unlike anything you've ever tried, and works great.

cmuncy · May 15, 2006

In our diesel drag trucks, we use a high pressure lube for the head studs from Chicago Manufacturing and Distributing . It's a high pressure lube, unlike anything you've ever tried, and works great.

EddieWalker · May 15, 2006

Another question or two.

I'm still a few days away from getting the head, but hope to get the rebuild kit tomorrow. I'll pic up some o'ring lube tomorrow also from Napa. Any suggestions on what I need to ask them for?

My question is where is TDC? Is it on the compression stroke or the exhaust stroke? How do I know which is which without the head on? Is thise where I need to be to adjust the valves?

The whole valve adjustment has me paniced anyway. I'm hopeing to get the crank in the correct position to begin with.

My next question is how to adjust the valves?

How do I know when I'm at TDC for each cylinder?

Thank you,
Eddie

EddieWalker · May 15, 2006

Another question or two.

I'm still a few days away from getting the head, but hope to get the rebuild kit tomorrow. I'll pic up some o'ring lube tomorrow also from Napa. Any suggestions on what I need to ask them for?

My question is where is TDC? Is it on the compression stroke or the exhaust stroke? How do I know which is which without the head on? Is thise where I need to be to adjust the valves?

The whole valve adjustment has me paniced anyway. I'm hopeing to get the crank in the correct position to begin with.

My next question is how to adjust the valves?

How do I know when I'm at TDC for each cylinder?

Thank you,
Eddie

hilld · May 16, 2006

Eddie,

TDC is both on the compression and the exhaust stoke. Timing is set on the compression stroke, you will have to determine on which stoke it is on. Both the valves will be closed during the compression stoke, if you can't see the valves due to the fact the head is removed, look at the camshaft and make sure none of the lobes are pushing up a lifter.

Hope that explanation helps a little.

Derek

hilld · May 16, 2006

Eddie,

TDC is both on the compression and the exhaust stoke. Timing is set on the compression stroke, you will have to determine on which stoke it is on. Both the valves will be closed during the compression stoke, if you can't see the valves due to the fact the head is removed, look at the camshaft and make sure none of the lobes are pushing up a lifter.

Hope that explanation helps a little.

Derek

IH3444 · May 16, 2006

Eddie, it's not a bad idea to inspect the crankshaft journals now also, and maybe measure the journals. I wouldn't be too worried if a few are worn .001 to .0015. You may want to also polish the journals also with a very fine polishing cloth. Just clean the journal, and eyeball it for any deep scratches. I'm sure that you are fine. Besure to keep those rod caps matched. Does the manual ask for new connecting rod bolts/nuts to be installed? Sometimes just new rod bolt nuts are needed. You should look for a manual if you don't have one. It will help with timing set up, and valve adjustment.

IH3444 · May 16, 2006

Eddie, it's not a bad idea to inspect the crankshaft journals now also, and maybe measure the journals. I wouldn't be too worried if a few are worn .001 to .0015. You may want to also polish the journals also with a very fine polishing cloth. Just clean the journal, and eyeball it for any deep scratches. I'm sure that you are fine. Besure to keep those rod caps matched. Does the manual ask for new connecting rod bolts/nuts to be installed? Sometimes just new rod bolt nuts are needed. You should look for a manual if you don't have one. It will help with timing set up, and valve adjustment.

HGM · May 16, 2006

( Eddie,

TDC is both on the compression and the exhaust stoke. Timing is set on the compression stroke, you will have to determine on which stoke it is on. Both the valves will be closed during the compression stoke, if you can't see the valves due to the fact the head is removed, look at the camshaft and make sure none of the lobes are pushing up a lifter. 

Hope that explanation helps a little.

Derek )

Just a side note, the valves will not all be closed at the same time(for every cyl).. TDC,for timing purposes, is on #1.. Set #1 to TDC(both valves must be closed).. That will be the compression(power stroke) and where you need to begin. The cyl's are likely paired and you will find that you can set the valve adj on more than one cyl at a time before you need to rotate the crank.. BTW, bar the engine over with a breaker bar untill you get it all done and then at least 2 full revoloutions afterward.. This way, if you do have a clearance issue, you'll be able to stop there,.. If you use the starter to rotate the crank, it will be too late when you notice a problem, then you'll have to do it all over again.. Unless there is something very different about this engine, you'll be fine with these recomendations.

HGM · May 16, 2006

( Eddie,

TDC is both on the compression and the exhaust stoke. Timing is set on the compression stroke, you will have to determine on which stoke it is on. Both the valves will be closed during the compression stoke, if you can't see the valves due to the fact the head is removed, look at the camshaft and make sure none of the lobes are pushing up a lifter. 

Hope that explanation helps a little.

Derek )

Just a side note, the valves will not all be closed at the same time(for every cyl).. TDC,for timing purposes, is on #1.. Set #1 to TDC(both valves must be closed).. That will be the compression(power stroke) and where you need to begin. The cyl's are likely paired and you will find that you can set the valve adj on more than one cyl at a time before you need to rotate the crank.. BTW, bar the engine over with a breaker bar untill you get it all done and then at least 2 full revoloutions afterward.. This way, if you do have a clearance issue, you'll be able to stop there,.. If you use the starter to rotate the crank, it will be too late when you notice a problem, then you'll have to do it all over again.. Unless there is something very different about this engine, you'll be fine with these recomendations.

EddieWalker · May 16, 2006

Thanks for the help on TDC. It's what I was thinking, but I'm not confident enough to assume anything. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

My neighbor was over yesterday and he suggested I replace all the rod bolts too!! When I get good advice from multiple sources, I take that advice and will replace all of them.

The journals look perfect! I just need to keep them that way when I slide the pistons back in. I'll use hose lengths on the rod bolts and take it nice and slow.

Is there a prefered location for the compression rings to have their gaps? Oposite ends of the piston?

Thank you,
Eddie

EddieWalker · May 16, 2006

Thanks for the help on TDC. It's what I was thinking, but I'm not confident enough to assume anything. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

My neighbor was over yesterday and he suggested I replace all the rod bolts too!! When I get good advice from multiple sources, I take that advice and will replace all of them.

The journals look perfect! I just need to keep them that way when I slide the pistons back in. I'll use hose lengths on the rod bolts and take it nice and slow.

Is there a prefered location for the compression rings to have their gaps? Oposite ends of the piston?

Thank you,
Eddie

IH3444 · May 16, 2006

Eddie, I figured your journals were OK, the hose lengths are a standard installation tool, sorry I forgot that. I ususally place the compression gaps at 180 degrees from each other, over the wrist pin ends. I then turn the oil gap 90 degrees to that. Yours is a vertical engine so I don't think it makes any difference. I don't know which way your engine turns, or torques, but a good rule of thumb is to place the oil ring gap to the piston skirt that take the brunt of the downward power stroke. That way, if a bit of oil is sucked up pass it, that skirt gets the lube. The reason for the compression ring placement is that any compression blow by will not deposit any particles of soot onto the skirts, but will pass to the shortest distance to the crankcase, to be suspended by the oil. The skirts with any soot grit may cause the cylinder to wear prematurely, as well as the Aluminum skirt. You are doing a great job rebuilding this engine properly, and you will reap the rewards for the rest of you life with this engine. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif The story with the rod bolts, and nuts is that they stretch when torqued to specs, so the old ones should be replaced. Not necessary always true, but for a proper rebuild they should be replaced. Lots of assembly lube, and non detergent 30w for assembly, and you will be fine, and well on your way to a great engine. Some use oil on the connecting rod bolt threads, some use red locktight. I use locktight on ones I reuse, and oil on new ones.

IH3444 · May 16, 2006

Eddie, I figured your journals were OK, the hose lengths are a standard installation tool, sorry I forgot that. I ususally place the compression gaps at 180 degrees from each other, over the wrist pin ends. I then turn the oil gap 90 degrees to that. Yours is a vertical engine so I don't think it makes any difference. I don't know which way your engine turns, or torques, but a good rule of thumb is to place the oil ring gap to the piston skirt that take the brunt of the downward power stroke. That way, if a bit of oil is sucked up pass it, that skirt gets the lube. The reason for the compression ring placement is that any compression blow by will not deposit any particles of soot onto the skirts, but will pass to the shortest distance to the crankcase, to be suspended by the oil. The skirts with any soot grit may cause the cylinder to wear prematurely, as well as the Aluminum skirt. You are doing a great job rebuilding this engine properly, and you will reap the rewards for the rest of you life with this engine. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif The story with the rod bolts, and nuts is that they stretch when torqued to specs, so the old ones should be replaced. Not necessary always true, but for a proper rebuild they should be replaced. Lots of assembly lube, and non detergent 30w for assembly, and you will be fine, and well on your way to a great engine. Some use oil on the connecting rod bolt threads, some use red locktight. I use locktight on ones I reuse, and oil on new ones.